IMPROVEMENT IDEA - PRESETS for FORMATION/RUNES/WEAPONS

I don't know about the rest of you but I am SICK of constantly tuning my formations, gear and rune configurations when combating next levels of Boss NPCs from story line, or Baal/Cerb event monsters, Hero Realm or general component grinding or Arena Play. Each of these all need different formations and equipment and rune arrangements to get optimum attack or defense etc. and a quick way to get back to normal to prevent getting raped and pillaged post baal/cerb event for your fat wallet when you win last hit coinage.

Especially the Hero Realm area needs different attacker kinds (magic casters or physical attackers) when at the edge of your power and skill abilities.

PRESETS IS THE ANSWER

Give us about 4 or 5 buttons we can press inside our formation or hero screen to define formations/rune/Equip configurations (and let us label them: e.g. "kick Baals butt preset"). Pressing the button would autoload a predefined setting that we define. This way swapping from one to another (guild wars etc.) would be so much faster and better and make for more fun and less hassle game play...


:cool:

Yes, I agree with this. Preset gear + rune combinations for your entire team would just be amazing. I have three different major ones I use (PvP, Labyrinth/PvP2, Baal/Cerb) and it's a big pain every day to swap these out multiple times a day (not to mention it leaves you vulnerable for extended periods of time while you move gear and runes around).

Yes i agree with this improvement, because its boring and costs much time to Change that all!!!

YES YES YES YES YES YES

Only issue is this
Imagine you have all your gear and runes and heroes setup right now for baal.
in 2 weeks your setup will be different GUARANTEED

Now one would say "NO i use the exact same formation for baal every single time"
No you dont! No one does
YOu upgrade teh gear and runes daily.
SO if tyoday you have a level 7 bane on your main for baal
in 2 weeks you might be using a level 8 or 9 bane
Today you may be using a level 20 HB sword on your main
In 2 weeks it may be a level 27 Guardian sword

Unfortunately because the weapon levels and rune levels are changing so frequently, it may be a massive issue for the programmers to be able to define presets for us
Yes they could do formation
but i doubt they would ever attempt rune and gear combo presets

Yes that would be awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mattp169

YES YES YES YES YES YES

Only issue is this
Imagine you have all your gear and runes and heroes setup right now for baal.
in 2 weeks your setup will be different GUARANTEED

Now one would say "NO i use the exact same formation for baal every single time"
No you dont! No one does
YOu upgrade teh gear and runes daily.
SO if tyoday you have a level 7 bane on your main for baal
in 2 weeks you might be using a level 8 or 9 bane
Today you may be using a level 20 HB sword on your main
In 2 weeks it may be a level 27 Guardian sword

Unfortunately because the weapon levels and rune levels are changing so frequently, it may be a massive issue for the programmers to be able to define presets for us
Yes they could do formation
but i doubt they would ever attempt rune and gear combo presets

---

Every item tied to a character has a distinct ID, including runes. This is just the basics of database management for a game like this. It would be extremely easy to keep track of a rune or a weapon or a helm as it levels up, as you're only keeping track of the "association ID" between the player and the item. The only possible issue would be during an upgrade from say, Hope Bringer's to Champion's level, or Champion's to Guardian's, but to fix that you have a small piece of code that says, "While upgrading this item, find the item's old ID and replace it with the new ID of the item that replaced it during the upgrade." It's also possible that the item ID tied to the character/player doesn't change, only its "template" ID. "I am an item of template type Champion's Sword with ID 3, but now am a Guardian's Sword with ID 4 and my level has reduced by 3. I am associated to the player with ID 27, and that hasn't changed."

In other words, there are plenty of ways to manipulate the data to maintain presets should the developers choose to. Please don't make comments about the difficulty of programming something if your experience is just dabbling rather than as your profession, as it seems (and I hope it is) to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klepto

Every item tied to a character has a distinct ID, including runes. This is just the basics of database management for a game like this. It would be extremely easy to keep track of a rune or a weapon or a helm as it levels up, as you're only keeping track of the "association ID" between the player and the item. The only possible issue would be during an upgrade from say, Hope Bringer's to Champion's level, or Champion's to Guardian's, but to fix that you have a small piece of code that says, "While upgrading this item, find the item's old ID and replace it with the new ID of the item that replaced it during the upgrade." It's also possible that the item ID tied to the character/player doesn't change, only its "template" ID. "I am an item of template type Champion's Sword with ID 3, but now am a Guardian's Sword with ID 4 and my level has reduced by 3. I am associated to the player with ID 27, and that hasn't changed."

In other words, there are plenty of ways to manipulate the data to maintain presets should the developers choose to. Please don't make comments about the difficulty of programming something if your experience is just dabbling rather than as your profession, as it seems (and I hope it is) to be.

---

Exactly Klepto - as the item upgrades (change in attribute value not change of class) the item KEY in the database stays the same unless it is absorbed into a higher level item. If it is just changing the level from say purple to yellow of the same super class (e.g agility to nimbleness [i.e. generic category DODGE]) it just updates the preset key to the one superior in pedigree. If its a whole new class change (e.g. DODGE to BLOCK or HIT to HP) then the preset gets marked as "in need of user maintenance due to upgrade" and perhaps the GUI gets a RED FLAG indication to come make a decision to redefine that preset (but it goes ahead and keeps the new item key as a default until told otherwise so SOMETHING loads EVERY TIME). This is classic object oriented design where super classes absorb their siblings.

It might be subject to some "gotcha's" to shake out the concept in beta for a month or two with user feedback but I think this is a MUST have to get optimum fun and utility out of the game. A real sophisticated programmer worth his salt could even program simulated attack or defense profiles to monte carlo the best power setup and formations automatically using thousands of simulations (in a second or two) for a given rune set and maybe make suggestions on minor rune improvements/upgrades to give PROFOUND game performance rather than the current manual trial and error heuristic. Could be a really FUN project for a top SW developer to take on and push this game into a new class of higher end offings online that would give a market advantage.

By the way has anyone else noticed that this game is really just a fantasy genre of golf? We just have different course/fairways and traps/monster and clubs in the bag to make par and reduce handicap...

Speaking of which - HANDICAP play might be a good thing to work in too for PvP rather than waiting around for the few "red" players to wander into wilds to encounter combat when there are plenty of noobs who might like to take a shot if given a fair handicap...

This sounds like a cool idea but incredibly difficult to implement. I'll pass it on nonetheless!

I wonder whatever happens to this idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lamodomo_2092870

I wonder whatever happens to this idea.

---

"incredibly difficult to implement" as Dawnseeker said.

I don't know their database structure so I can't comment on the difficulty. Good database design makes a feature like this relatively moderate in difficulty. Poor database design can make it very difficult. It all boils down to how their inventory and equipment tables are structured.

The biggest problem that I see is identifying the equipment and runes. There would have to be an id of some kind assigned to each piece of equipment and rune so that they can be assigned to each hero. With equipment it can be automatically assigned when the equipment is bought from the armorer, but with runes you can not just assign an id to every rune that is created. There would have to be a way to identify what runes you consider part of your inventory and not the ones that you are going to use to upgrade other runes.

Then you have the problem of formations becoming obsolete when you take a rune that is part of a stored formation and use it to upgrade another rune. For example you have a level 7 purple one that you use to bring a gold one to level 6.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy

The biggest problem that I see is identifying the equipment and runes. There would have to be an id of some kind assigned to each piece of equipment and rune so that they can be assigned to each hero. With equipment it can be automatically assigned when the equipment is bought from the armorer, but with runes you can not just assign an id to every rune that is created. There would have to be a way to identify what runes you consider part of your inventory and not the ones that you are going to use to upgrade other runes.

---

They would already have an ID for any items in your general "rune inventory" or for a specific hero's runes. Every rune is kept between logins so they already have a way to track them for a given account.

The tricky part is where do you put runes that have to be taken off for a preset? Do they go in the general rune inventory? If that's full, then where? Do they just get randomly put on a hero you own that's not in your current preset formation? Many ways to skin the cat, but the best option is hard to decide on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy

Then you have the problem of formations becoming obsolete when you take a rune that is part of a stored formation and use it to upgrade another rune. For example you have a level 7 purple one that you use to bring a gold one to level 6.

---

If a rune is not found in a stored formation, then you simply leave the slot empty to show the player they need to update the preset. Problem solved. The player moves the rune in they like, then clicks save. Tada.

I would love to have some presets that you can reset.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klepto

They would already have an ID for any items in your general "rune inventory" or for a specific hero's runes. Every rune is kept between logins so they already have a way to track them for a given account.

The tricky part is where do you put runes that have to be taken off for a preset? Do they go in the general rune inventory? If that's full, then where? Do they just get randomly put on a hero you own that's not in your current preset formation? Many ways to skin the cat, but the best option is hard to decide on.

---

I have a lot of extra heroes that I recruited on the first 'free card Tuesday' that I use to store the runes I want to keep for future use so I can easily merge the runes that I get from the temple. I suppose that that would be a possible solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klepto

If a rune is not found in a stored formation, then you simply leave the slot empty to show the player they need to update the preset. Problem solved. The player moves the rune in they like, then clicks save. Tada.

---

I would add that a stored formation that is now invalid can not be used, otherwise you could end up setting up your heroes with empty rune slots. The same would be true when you open new rune slots on heroes that are on a specific stored formation,

Could just have a 'best available' system. The game knows what levels runes are. It knows every rune in your chest, left in the rune temple, on heroes in formations and even the guys in the closet collecting dust but holding spares. It knows those runes belong to you. It knows how much experience each rune has. The data persists between logins. So, it's stored somewhere. Whether it's in a nice format or not, who knows.

Wanna make some cash? VIP3 or so, preset formations perk.

Rather than saying "this extremely specific rune I now have at this level with this exp goes on this guy when I do this", have it something like this:

Preset 1:

Small formation grid. Black spaces empty, white spaces have numbers 1-5. Arrange to suit your need.

Dropdown: Hero 1, Hero 2, Hero 3, Hero 4, or Hero 5

-> Dropdown: List of hero names. Pick the one that is associated with the digit on the location in the formation.

--> Rune 1: Dropdown -> Choose highest priority highest level (Example: Morale)(It already knows that a +110 Partisan is better than a +50 Righteousness)
--> Rune 2: Dropdown -> Choose second priority highest level
...
Continue for all rune slots, even the not yet unlocked ones so you don't have to do all kinds of silliness every time you hit a level ending in zero.

--> Weapon: Dropdown -> Choose from 1-5, 1 being highest priority for best weapon (and being smart enough to put staves on mages and swords on everyone else) (And make a bow, please)
--> Chestguard: Dropdown 1-5 (Add checks to make sure same priority number isn't picked twice)
--> Helmet: 1-5
...

Save Preset As: <Text box>
SAVE|CANCEL

Wanna make more cash? VIP5 or 6? Smart Formations. Based on what you're doing when sitting around idle collecting dust and xp, it puts you in the events with the proper formation, or, when you click the button yourself to do some certain thing, it immediately picks the formation preset you specify. If you get revenged, it knows to have you in Preset 5. If you get tagged in the arena, Preset 2. Whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Subliminal

Could just have a 'best available' system. The game knows what levels runes are. It knows every rune in your chest, left in the rune temple, on heroes in formations and even the guys in the closet collecting dust but holding spares. It knows those runes belong to you. It knows how much experience each rune has. The data persists between logins. So, it's stored somewhere. Whether it's in a nice format or not, who knows.

Wanna make some cash? VIP3 or so, preset formations perk.

Rather than saying "this extremely specific rune I now have at this level with this exp goes on this guy when I do this", have it something like this:

Preset 1:

Small formation grid. Black spaces empty, white spaces have numbers 1-5. Arrange to suit your need.

Dropdown: Hero 1, Hero 2, Hero 3, Hero 4, or Hero 5

-> Dropdown: List of hero names. Pick the one that is associated with the digit on the location in the formation.

--> Rune 1: Dropdown -> Choose highest priority highest level (Example: Morale)(It already knows that a +110 Partisan is better than a +50 Righteousness)
--> Rune 2: Dropdown -> Choose second priority highest level
...
Continue for all rune slots, even the not yet unlocked ones so you don't have to do all kinds of silliness every time you hit a level ending in zero.

--> Weapon: Dropdown -> Choose from 1-5, 1 being highest priority for best weapon (and being smart enough to put staves on mages and swords on everyone else) (And make a bow, please)
--> Chestguard: Dropdown 1-5 (Add checks to make sure same priority number isn't picked twice)
--> Helmet: 1-5
...

Save Preset As: <Text box>
SAVE|CANCEL

Wanna make more cash? VIP5 or 6? Smart Formations. Based on what you're doing when sitting around idle collecting dust and xp, it puts you in the events with the proper formation, or, when you click the button yourself to do some certain thing, it immediately picks the formation preset you specify. If you get revenged, it knows to have you in Preset 5. If you get tagged in the arena, Preset 2. Whatever.

---

This kind of feature isn't something to do as a cash grab. You do it to make the game better so the game UI gets out of the way of gameplay. If presets are implemented as a VIP feature only, this game doesn't have a future. You need the UI to facilitate playing the game, and you don't restrict important stuff like that to people who pay $100+.

Also, I personally require specific runes of specific levels on specific heroes, especially for World Bosses and Heroic Realm encounters. I don't need a random "best-of" guess, I need it exactly how it needs to be for what I'm doing.

Additionally, you don't want to have to configure each thing by hand (formation, gear, rune presets) in some weird UI outside the standard game setting. Set your formation, runes, and gear up once, then save a specific preset for all of that at once. That's more intuitive and easier to use. I appreciate your suggestion but it's not only way too complicated for most regular users but it's actually less flexible and more painful from a user experience perspective.

I really don't think so. Games that predate this one have, for decades, employed a 'powerup' mechanism that essentially does the same thing. It finds the best equipment based on your class and applies it to your character. Games have, for years, been able to have popups that highlight your current equipment, a new piece of equipment, and highlight the differences or put some sort of symbol to denote one item is a higher grade than what you currently have equipped. Even some silly mobile games just automagically put the best stuff on your character.

As far as the business side of it, we can agree to disagree there. Presets are something I'd pay a few bucks for. As it stands, I might hit a couple more VIP levels just because I happen to want to buy gems, but certainly not for any of the useless nonsense they give as a "benefit" at some of the higher levels (If you spend hundreds of bucks on gems, you're SO special, we'll give you the chance to spend stupid amounts of gems for little to no reward! Yay, sign me up!). Sure, would I like a perk like this to be free? Yup. I'd like my mortgage to be free too. The new servers apparently attract enough people for them to turn their buck. The problem has been servers ghosting out (as far as I can see from the posts here) and I've seen nothing whatsoever from the devs saying they feel there is a problem. So, making this something people pay for could potentially be a win-win. It might be a mechanic that encourages folks to stick around on the established servers and still gives Tynon their dollar.

It was hard to type out what my UI vision was for this because I am more used to actually presenting UIs to clients graphically so I spent some time trying to phrase it here. However, the dropdown idea is really no different than Filling out, say, a billing information form or changing your account stuffs in Amazon or whatever. Or maybe shopping at an online auto parts store when you put the make of the vehicle, then it prunes the models to an appropriate list, then prunes again to show relevant parts. Multiple billing addresses, cards, shipping addresses and whatever. While I do have little enough faith in the common sense of humanity overall, I think that most people who play these games would not totally balk at a form like this just because they've probably seen it elsewhere on the internet. Can it be made prettier than the dropdown used to embed jewels? I assuredly think so.

I know what people have been suggesting is just what you stated at the end of your post and the biggest "complication" has been 'specific rune-specific hero'. This was a way to get around that. I could add in an 'advanced' mechanism that would let the folks for whom 'best available' doesn't do enough and that mechanic would potentially be available. I think both approaches have value and merit consideration. I think either way, the player will have to think through what they have and how they want it to look and the best players will spend considerable time tweaking it. I also think there needs to be something added to show conflicts, like the little alerts like you get as a Guild host when someone puts in an application, to show that something you have in a preset is no longer available (like when you merged runes) or whatever.

Is it complicated? Sure. The reason constantly having to change all this stuff is so obnoxious is because it IS complicated to get everything just right for each scenario. Think about all the steps of logic you go through to change from one formation to another. Asking a computer to do it for you doesn't change the level of complexity of the task, as I know you are well aware.

The other approach would be as simple as taking a 'snapshot' which it already has to do or else you wouldn't be in the same formation with the same heroes, runes and equipment as when you logged out. The problem with the snapshot is that you'd have to make sure you had a firm grasp on how you wanted to deal with the dynamic aspects of things that change.

But, whatever. I'm fond of coming up with solutions moreso than gripes so I thought I'd think it though and present something.

Just my 2 cents worth here.
I am guessing that for WB everyone has a specific formation and runes they use.
Couldn't you have a wb preset that, when clicked, uses that setup?
If that is possible then it should be equally possible to have a preset for each hr boss. Right?
Set up the formation, gear and runes then ctrl/click the WB button and it stores that for re-use.
Upgraded a rune? Bring up that formation, add the rune and ctrl/click to save the new image.
Have a pvp button.
Each HR screen could have a preset on it. As could wb and pirates.

If we can think it they can code it.

Gorgon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Subliminal

The other approach would be as simple as taking a 'snapshot' which it already has to do or else you wouldn't be in the same formation with the same heroes, runes and equipment as when you logged out. The problem with the snapshot is that you'd have to make sure you had a firm grasp on how you wanted to deal with the dynamic aspects of things that change.

---

The "snapshot" model is what I'm arguing for. It's more intuitive and frankly, easier to code (at least, from my experience as a developer, that would be the easiest path). Simply save which item/hero ID's are active, and then you can pull them back at any time. The only somewhat tricky part is inventory management at that point, but there are ways to manage that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klepto

The "snapshot" model is what I'm arguing for. It's more intuitive and frankly, easier to code (at least, from my experience as a developer, that would be the easiest path). Simply save which item/hero ID's are active, and then you can pull them back at any time. The only somewhat tricky part is inventory management at that point, but there are ways to manage that.

---

There has to be some sort of id assigned to each piece of equipment and rune that can be used to manage the configuration. If that is done, then you can continue to use the snapshot as long as all the pieces of equipment and runes that were used in that were used in that snapshot are still available regardless of any upgrades that were made. If a piece of equipment or rune is no longer available (it could happen with equipment if it is sold) the snapshot is marked invalid so that when it is selected the player has to update it and re-save it. This is probably the easiest method to program and the most intuitive to use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy

There has to be some sort of id assigned to each piece of equipment and rune that can be used to manage the configuration. If that is done, then you can continue to use the snapshot as long as all the pieces of equipment and runes that were used in that were used in that snapshot are still available regardless of any upgrades that were made. If a piece of equipment or rune is no longer available (it could happen with equipment if it is sold) the snapshot is marked invalid so that when it is selected the player has to update it and re-save it. This is probably the easiest method to program and the most intuitive to use.

---

I don't think there's any reason to mark it invalid. The player still has to keep their preset up to date and manage it either way. The preset is merely there to make it easier to keep things ready for different events. If the player updates runes/gear, it's their job to realize, "Hey, these presets are affected." There's a lot of "burden of knowledge" even with presets helping out, you can't get around that.

Arguably the hardest part is rune inventory management, or regular inventory management when there are no spaces for gear. I don't know any truly elegant way to solve that problem, as I'm not familiar with ways Tynon developers could be creative about space (e.g. allow for temporary rune or regular inventory space when presets overflow it, IDK).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klepto

I don't think there's any reason to mark it invalid. The player still has to keep their preset up to date and manage it either way. The preset is merely there to make it easier to keep things ready for different events. If the player updates runes/gear, it's their job to realize, "Hey, these presets are affected." There's a lot of "burden of knowledge" even with presets helping out, you can't get around that.

---

Are you saying that if a piece of equipment or a rune is no longer available that it would be OK for the player to use the preset without any warning that some hero would be missing equipment or runes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy

Are you saying that if a piece of equipment or a rune is no longer available that it would be OK for the player to use the preset without any warning that some hero would be missing equipment or runes?

---

Yes, because that player would have had to do something to get rid of that equipment/rune. It's still the player's responsibility to be aware of what they do. Presets just make the day-to-day easier so that come Baal time there isn't this 5 minute scramble to get everything in place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klepto

Yes, because that player would have had to do something to get rid of that equipment/rune. It's still the player's responsibility to be aware of what they do. Presets just make the day-to-day easier so that come Baal time there isn't this 5 minute scramble to get everything in place.

---

But he may have made the preset a long time ago and not remember. We already have too many places where there is no warning where there should be one. I think that a warning would be warranted here.

This would be great. I spend 10 minutes before (during) cerb switching over three heros. It is always a race because the arena rewards cutoff is at the same time as the start of cerb. It would be great to make the switch in one click. By the way, if development of an automatically updating setup is too complicated... why not a manual update option (actually I would prefer this, for example, I want to keep a lower righteousness on Calvin, etc).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by goffdoffing

This would be great. I spend 10 minutes before (during) cerb switching over three heros. It is always a race because the arena rewards cutoff is at the same time as the start of cerb. It would be great to make the switch in one click. By the way, if development of an automatically updating setup is too complicated... why not a manual update option (actually I would prefer this, for example, I want to keep a lower righteousness on Calvin, etc).

---

It only takes me 2mins to switch over 3 heroes, complete with all their equipment and runes for the transition from Arena Rewards cutoff to World Boss event.

I don't understand why it would take you 10mins.

It takes you 2 minutes. Some players don't have the same manual dexterity or have lag issues due to their connection or computer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by goffdoffing

This would be great. I spend 10 minutes before (during) cerb switching over three heros. It is always a race because the arena rewards cutoff is at the same time as the start of cerb. It would be great to make the switch in one click. By the way, if development of an automatically updating setup is too complicated... why not a manual update option (actually I would prefer this, for example, I want to keep a lower righteousness on Calvin, etc).

---

You want it to be a manual update specifically for these reasons. Specific rune levels belong on specific heroes for specific encounters. You wouldn't try to attack Heroic Realm bosses the same way you approach PvP or Baal/Cerb. Same goes for gear and heroes. I swap gear and heroes around depending on my needs for specific encounters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Herby

It only takes me 2mins to switch over 3 heroes, complete with all their equipment and runes for the transition from Arena Rewards cutoff to World Boss event.

I don't understand why it would take you 10mins.

---

It takes me 1 minute because I have little lag (nice machine and internet connection), but that's not really the point. It's a time-consuming boring process that could be avoided with a bit of UI improvement, and it's worse for those playing over slow connections (I have a few guild mates playing over dial-up). When you're playing over a connection that was fast back in 1994, it makes a big difference if you can have the game UI take care of complex things for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klepto

You want it to be a manual update specifically for these reasons. Specific rune levels belong on specific heroes for specific encounters. You wouldn't try to attack Heroic Realm bosses the same way you approach PvP or Baal/Cerb. Same goes for gear and heroes. I swap gear and heroes around depending on my needs for specific encounters.



It takes me 1 minute because I have little lag (nice machine and internet connection), but that's not really the point. It's a time-consuming boring process that could be avoided with a bit of UI improvement, and it's worse for those playing over slow connections (I have a few guild mates playing over dial-up). When you're playing over a connection that was fast back in 1994, it makes a big difference if you can have the game UI take care of complex things for you.

---

Wow, Dial up? Wouldn't think Tynon would work very well over dial up. Those players must have some massive patience.

Currently for CW we can setup a different formation than the one we have in game. So something similar can be don for baal/cerb too. So basically just give an additional preset tfrom the one we currently have so we can switch real quick for baal/cerb.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dawnseeker

This sounds like a cool idea but incredibly difficult to implement. I'll pass it on nonetheless!

---

If I were you Dawn I would take this as the next big challenge for Tynon to take into huge consideration
This idea will be great for the game as it will get peoples happiness up and for others a more enjoyable game to play
Please let us know whether or NOT this idea will be implemented