How the new 10 PvP limit is counter intuitive to something Dawnseeker is fond of sayi

Ok
Now this is not to pick on DAWN's comment in any way, but I would like to point something out in what I believe to be a very constructive way.

Dawn has said several times, and I am fond of quoting him on it.... That they will not tell us everything and like to leave things a mystery because part of the fun is figuring it out yourself.

Now that is all fine and dandy. One of the main ways we could figure it out ourselves was to battle each other. Change our runes around and see what the effect was. The 2 players could go back and forth trying things out together to see what works and what does not. And this was actually fun for many of us.

Tonite Boo and I decided to do just that. And guess what we forgot all about the 10 PvP limit and could only battle 1 time. SO it was hard to go change things to see if the results we saw in the first fight would change.

Its hard to do this in arena since people may not be able to see each other in arena who are willing to try this out.
You cant really do it with a NPC character too easily since you cant control its runes and gear and you have no clue what their stats really are to start with.
The best way to figure things out is to PvP

So the new 10 PvP limit is making it harder for us TO FIGURE IT OUT OURSELVES and thereby making the game less fun. Please remove the limit and restore the fun of figuring it out ourselves

I agree, i normally only farm 3 people for assistant so the limit has never bothered me until i needed to test out some runes, and now its a pain in the backside.
We cant test accurately with 10 hits, this will just cause MORE assumption that something is definite.

The problem is this is a pvp game, so limiting pvp is silly, no one forces people to goto the wilds and there is a level range on who you can pk so the only reason I see to limit the number of pks is the keep players from farming multiple alts of their daily gains into one main account.

matt you complain about every single change that has happened

maybe if you didnt complain too much the tynon people would listen to you

you seem to complain just for the sake of complaining

I have not complained about everything - I like most of the changes in the new patch and cant wait for some of teh changes that have occurred in beta to get to live.

I do complain alot about the same things SO I can see your misconception

But the 2 main things in the new patch that I hate are the 10 PvP limit and the fact that since the actual plan - not the level - in Wb drops for TOP 3 is not weighted so that the higher your rank the better the plan you get
ANd by better I mean a plan less likely to drop.

I do think many of these changes are intentionally geared to change the way people are playing this game and I do not like that, since I feel this is pushing this more to what has happened in evony.

I do like the half rewards for pirates, teh level 70 and 80 rewards, and all the other changes, but would like to see the guild chest tweaked a hair by removing maps from the gold chests and possibly have the gold and credits increased.


You have seen all the people complain about lots of things in this forum. And some of those complaints get taken into account and changes made

The biggest example of this is how much they have changed pirates since beta.

SO I will complain all I want. I will complain loudly and often. That is one of the things the forums are for

Sometimes making the loudest noise isn't the best way to be heard.

*sniff sniff* Do I smell troll?

I'm not a fan of the 10 hit limit for the precise reasons matt has stated. Want to stop people from griefing? Make pvp power related rather than level related. Fixed. There are very few players I can't beat at least once in awhile who are within a million power of me, and the reason for this is that I constantly test and tweak my setup through pvp.

My guildmates get testy when I constantly attack them in the arena. :)

Power can be manipulated. Just swapping gears and runes between 2 heroes I can lose 2m power

Boo is correct, which is why I believe having PvP be determined by power is not the best solution.
I have pm'd dawn asking if we could get the official reasoning behind imposing this limit, but he has not responded after waiting several days. Many have speculated that it was because people were complaining about being repeatedly attacked by the same person, or that it was to help with the supposed fact people are violating ToS by having multiple accounts, I have even speculated that it was to encourage Tos violations, and others have even said it was to slow down progress in the game.

If we knew the reasoning behind the limit, we - the players- might actually be able to generate a better solution to the problem. Because all I see it doing is

1.making the game less fun - for the reaosn I stated originally in this thread
2. have people tell me because of the limit they will be doing things that violate ToS - weather they really do is a whole different question
3. slowing down progress of smaller players - who now cant farm as many coins and credits each day
4. Had people state they will play less, spend less, or quit playing altogether
5. I personally spend more time in forums now then in game because there is less you can do daily in the game with the limit.

So it looks like any one of the speculated reasons could be correct.


Now I have seen a few people who say they like the change. But have had mostly people tell me they dislike the change. Dawn has not to my knowledge made a public comment on this change - except to announce it. So I really hope he or TyTony could weigh in here or somewhere about this change. PLEASE???

PvP should be limited to stamina only. Make the stamina hit higher on PvP vs PvNPCs if needed but if this is a war game then it needs to be rational.

Someone mentioned a "duel" option... allowing players to enter PvP. However, weak players would never accept or it would be abused to "feed" more powerful accounts.
My recommendation would be to remove the limit, but only win/lose reputation. Basically, no funds could be transferred.
However, that would certainly anger predatory account holders. They've spent a lot of time (and in some cases money) to build a shark-like account.
It should make testers happy though. You could test all day long, if that's what you wanted to do.
Basically, this is a difficult situation where Tynon wants to balance entertaining play with motivational activities that will coax real money from the membership.
KA

All Tynon needs to do is make it so people can only be attacked by the same person once every 12 hours.

Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Shiister

All Tynon needs to do is make it so people can only be attacked by the same person once every 12 hours.

Problem solved.

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I'd go for that, especially if it applied to the Caribbean (e.g. you get one shot to take out a boat. Win or lose, that's it for you against that person for that half of the day).

Agreed,remove the limit. but put a cooldown on attacking the same person. i'm starting to fall behind now because i cant go out and farm people for coins/creds to make up for me not coining. 10 just isnt enough to help out with it.

I like the idea of a cool down timer for attacking the same person instead of the limit. But I would say 12 hours should be the max. I think 3 or 4 hours would be more appropriate

There's already a 30 minute timer...

The thing about being able to manipulate power is this...it's not a hard and fast measure of how difficult you are to beat. I can beat players with 1 mil + more power than me (not ALL of them, but I have a fighting chance). Powering down to attain a closer power level is essentially handicapping yourself to be able to fight, which gives the other player a fighting chance. Legolas has 10mil+ power, and I can't kill one of his heroes. When he powers down to 1 or 2 heroes, I stand a pretty good chance, although even with one hero he still kills at least two of mine lmao.

The point is that there's no perfect system because you'll never have a *perfect* match; but the idea isn't to match perfectly, it's to achieve a rough approximation of being able to be competitive. Administering things by power will do this in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by BigPapa

There's already a 30 minute timer...

The thing about being able to manipulate power is this...it's not a hard and fast measure of how difficult you are to beat. I can beat players with 1 mil + more power than me (not ALL of them, but I have a fighting chance). Powering down to attain a closer power level is essentially handicapping yourself to be able to fight, which gives the other player a fighting chance. Legolas has 10mil+ power, and I can't kill one of his heroes. When he powers down to 1 or 2 heroes, I stand a pretty good chance, although even with one hero he still kills at least two of mine lmao.

The point is that there's no perfect system because you'll never have a *perfect* match; but the idea isn't to match perfectly, it's to achieve a rough approximation of being able to be competitive. Administering things by power will do this in my opinion.

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30min protection don't help much, due to how long it take to farm materials on Tynon.

A attack limit is better than basing PvP on power because it's easily to multiple. Your idea is very exploitable.

I believe I posted the reason for the limit in another thread. We're keen on keeping eyes on areas of the game that might encourage players to use bots or other gameplay-destructive activities. This was one area where we identified a potential problem.

We understand you may want to PvP more than that, and of course Arena is still an option for that, along with Ragnarok and Pirates. We're also working on new activities, including PvP activities to help get your PvP fix. This is a hardcore PvP game and we haven't forgotten that. More is coming.

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Originally Posted by Dawnseeker

I believe I posted the reason for the limit in another thread. We're keen on keeping eyes on areas of the game that might encourage players to use bots or other gameplay-destructive activities. This was one area where we identified a potential problem.

We understand you may want to PvP more than that, and of course Arena is still an option for that, along with Ragnarok and Pirates. We're also working on new activities, including PvP activities to help get your PvP fix. This is a hardcore PvP game and we haven't forgotten that. More is coming.

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Sorry if I missed your post on the reasoning behind the limit.

Most people agreed this limit was to prevent farming alts. - ANd I think you are 100% right to stop people form exploiting the game by creating alt accounts and farming them. However, from what people have been saying to me, this limit is actually making them want to go create alts now, when they didn't have alts to start with.

SInce you only get 10 chances to farm someone - why risk losing? Create alt accts and guarantee your income. And since it is only 10, thats not unreasonable for the hard core gamers to do. Plus people are already leaving the game for whatever reason, so those accts can be gifted/sold to others to farm etc.

So while i 100% agree with the reasoning for the change, I fear the change itself is adding to the problem. Plus all teh other great changes to the game make building alt accts that have millions of coins and credits easier.

May I suggest to limit this problem the following

1. remove the 10 PvP limit in the wild
2. Make it so you can only revenge someone if you LOSE the fight
3. Enforce a limit of 10 revenges a day or possibly less

This change would require alt accts to be within 3 levels of the main acct to be farmed. And allow us to go back to attacking as many people as we can find on a daily basis.

While not totally preventing alt farming, which the 10 PvP limit does not do either, it does make it much harder to create alt accts to be farmed

And Once again Dawn Thanks for replying

I will say this; if you're creating alts to farm. You can only hit those alts 10 times a day with your main. From my point of view, why would you just want to attack alts. Wouldn't playing PvP be much more fun.

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Morgan le Fay

I will say this; if you're creating alts to farm. You can only hit those alts 10 times a day with your main. From my point of view, why would you just want to attack alts. Wouldn't playing PvP be much more fun.

Just a thought.

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There are no limits on the Arena still. Alts are also a guarantee. I don't use them but I can certainly see the appeal for players who just want the maximum return despite what the ToS says.

Morgan
I am pretty sure you played Evony. SO what happened there with the alt problem will more than likely happen here eventually.

Now think about players who only have say 10-20 people in their attack range. Now granted not a lot of people like that, but there are. Why waste time looking in the wilds for them, hoping you can still win, and hoping they have a good amount of coins and credits to farm? When you could create 10 alts and farm them.

Now think about the smaller accounts that can't beat many people. It would be easier for them to farm alts to help them build up those smaller accounts then it would be trying to find people to beat.

Theres 2 aspects to PvP.
1. The fun of battling for the sake of battling
2. Farming someone to build yourself up

On aspect 1 - Morgan is absolutely right - attacking alts is stupid
On aspect 2 - Thats the whole point

Many people use PvP to farm and build themselves up. So any limit to it hurts them.

Now the folks who developed Tynon made have thought apect 2 was just a side effect of PvP. Many see it as the main point of PvP. If taking coins and credits from players is just meant to be an added bonus or side effect of PvP. And Aspect 1 is the Main point of PvP ion Tynon, then maybe a total change should be implemented.

A change such as

-when you PvP you do not take coins and credits from the other player
- both players split a reward instead
- the winner gets a base reward plus or mnius the difference in power between the 2 players in coins with it being calculated as Attacker - Defender. This would make hitting smaller players less beneficial

These changes could also discourage alt farming as well.

I think my point here is this.

The 10 PvP limit was imposed for a reason. I think a Good reason, but think its adding to the problem and creating new ones. Now hopefully some of these additions Dawn mentioned may correct the issues I feel are being created by the 10 PvP limit. But I think we may be able to contribute here and come up with and discuss other solutions to replace the 10 PvP limit which may work better at accomplishing the goal of the limit without hurting players who use PvP to build.

So I have presented a few ideas here already and welcome comments and other ideas.

Every MMO I've ever played you can bet your last dollar there will be alts. Its completely unavoidable whatever you put in the ToS. How the game developers approach it to limit the benefit of alts is what is important here.

I think the plan here is limit the advantage of having the alts by nerfing how many times you can you can attack in the wild. You only get 5% anyway (unless now of course its Melee Monday). Lot of work there for not a great deal of return. As for the arena, what's the point of using alts to farm chests and gems when you can't transfer them.

I think here it's a case if once bitten, twice shy. Other games have used similar formulas and although the alts remain they haven't got the advantages of games like Evony has.

Farming alts is a waste a time we all agree there. Maybe instead of sounding the Doom Bell, try to look positively and with a bit of optimism.

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Originally Posted by Morgan le Fay

Every MMO I've ever played you can bet your last dollar there will be alts. Its completely unavoidable whatever you put in the ToS. How the game developers approach it to limit the benefit of alts is what is important here.

I think the plan here is limit the advantage of having the alts by nerfing how many times you can you can attack in the wild. You only get 5% anyway (unless now of course its Melee Monday). Lot of work there for not a great deal of return. As for the arena, what's the point of using alts to farm chests and gems when you can't transfer them.

I think here it's a case if once bitten, twice shy. Other games have used similar formulas and although the alts remain they haven't got the advantages of games like Evony has.

Farming alts is a waste a time we all agree there. Maybe instead of sounding the Doom Bell, try to look positively and with a bit of optimism.

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I disagree with you on the Point that farming alts is a waste of time with the 10 PvP limit if you use PvP farming to build up. And I think that is the crux of most of the disagreements over this limit. The limit actually makes it more beneficial to farm alts then to try and farm regular players IMO.

I play dra****ang and alts there are pointless as you make 4 characters on ur main. Right game design takes away the need to do anything with alts. It's fun levelling the 4 diff characters

Stupid question: How do you farm alts? Wouldn't they be out of the level range to attack?

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Originally Posted by Dawnseeker

Stupid question: How do you farm alts? Wouldn't they be out of the level range to attack?

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Not that hard to keep your alt close to your main account level if you AFK with it and do quests.

I have 2 accounts, one which is level 64, my main, and other is level 61, my alternate.

My alternate account is easily keeping up with my main account due to my main account having to wait long periods time to complete quests(both accounts are trying to beat Baron Metus ATM), saving stamina for plans(I always at full stamina most of the time), and sitting in arena or on other screens which don't activate AFK training. I do the same thing on my alternate account, expect for sitting on screens in the game which don't activate AFK training, and leaving my alternate account to soak up experience.

I don't farm my alternate account due to playing it as my main, but you could easily keep both of them in the level range.

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Originally Posted by Dawnseeker

Stupid question: How do you farm alts? Wouldn't they be out of the level range to attack?

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Its really easy Dawn

Take both accounts to abomination
Have the alt attack the main
After battle have the main revenge

Or have the alt attack the main in pirates and then revenge.

Theres other ways but they all revolve around revenging. Unless the alt is within 3 levels of the main


This is why I feel changing the revenges so you can only revenge if you lose will stop most of the alt farming - because it would be difficult - not impossible- to keep the alts within the 3 level limit.
ANd if that is teh main reason for the Limint you can remove the limit and replace it with changing revenges and possibly limiting revenges.