What does predetermined really mean

If you read through the forums, many people including myself say things are predetermined.
So what do we really mean?

Many think that this means the game is rigged.

It does not.

Watch your screen while playing the game.

If you go into battle there is a loading bar.
But if you hit sanctify there is no loading bar.

WHY??????

Because teh software can basically do some things in advance. It can do all the RNG for some things in the game and store it. Because there are limited amount of factors involved in that process.
SO in battle, you can change all the runes armor and heroes around. That would be an incredible amount of information to store server side, so all those RNGs are done when you click on a fight.

But the only thing to determine on a sanctify is what is the saint going to be if it is successful and what happens if the player use 1,2,3, or at some levels 4 or 5 cards.
Thats not a lot of information to store. SO things like the sanctifies are calculated ahead of time and stored server side. SO are things like star successes, chest and casino prizes, etc

SO when we say something is predetermined, that is a slightly misleading word to use. The RNG of certain events in game are calculated and stored on the server ahead of time, to save processing time and provide smoother game play - THAT'S IT.


I have seen no evidence that these results are manipulated by devs
There is no way for players to manipulate this information -- although knowing some of it ahead of time could prove useful

Also the lab layout is sort of an in between thing. Every possible lab layout is probably stored on the server, and one is randomly chosen when you click enter, and once you hit enter the lab layout does not change until you start a new lab.

SO can we stop the RIGGED conversations.

Sorry I ride the short bus what does RNG mean?

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Originally Posted by becalvert_1151817

Sorry I ride the short bus what does RNG mean?

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Random number generator. So far there is no such thing as a truly random one (except possibly the human brain).

Matts Long answer short predetermined means the following:

1.) Establish or decide in advance

The game is predetermined . and it is rigged . in the card broker when it's shuffles I seen it hit on a gold card then flash to the blue and that's what I get . and the tavern soon as you hit shuffle it knows if your gonna get a good card or not no matter what card you pick if the game don't want ya to get a good one you wont .

I don't think it is rigged because there the random number generator makes a random number and that number has to be greater or less than the programmed number. For example, I am certain some people played pokemon sapphire, ruby, or emerald and when you evolve wurmple to get either a cascoon or silcoon, the random number generator generates X number to see is the value less than Y. It is like the card broker, casino and other random things in the game.

I get what you are saying and I agree. I think the point of contention that leads to the point of view of things being rigged is the frequency at which the RNG is engaged. For example, my first five spins in the casino yield 4M coins, 1M credits and 200 stamina no matter how many times I check it over the course of any number of days. I won't go on a tangent about how much of a rip-off that is. My casino spins, or guild chests or whatever, have been defined using an initial run of the RNG and will not be changed. That in itself is not a problem but many of us liken this game to a game of chance just like gambling. Which is not unusual as there are many underlying concepts from gambling used in this game. However, we associate chance with attempts or frequency. I mean the problem with gambling is that one has the misguided mindset that he will get lucky at some point as it's only a matter of time before the chance turns into his favor. We are misguided in believing that if we have a 10% chance to achieve a certain gain then it is only a matter of time and resources before we obtain the result we are looking for. The new star/medal system better reflects this line of thinking whereas the previous system did not. However, things like the casino do not. You must take the prize assigned to you for that particular chance before you can move on to the next prize you have been assigned for that chance and so on. Yes, we must assume the original results were randomized, using a very poor pseudo-RNG IMO, but the fact that we can reproduce the results over and over without the effect of time changing them is the problem as that doesn't correlate to how chance in real life works. I'm sure in some case the prize could compound the frustration.

I'm not saying either way is right or wrong. I think the problem lies more around player expectations and the marketing of these game functions by Tynon. I mean if you're going to have a card draw or a spin the wheel for a chance to win a prize game then you are taking a traditional gambling game and setting expectations that players have a random chance on each play and that's not necessarily correct.

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Originally Posted by riverkid.butler_849480

The game is predetermined . and it is rigged . in the card broker when it's shuffles I seen it hit on a gold card then flash to the blue and that's what I get . and the tavern soon as you hit shuffle it knows if your gonna get a good card or not no matter what card you pick if the game don't want ya to get a good one you wont .

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Once you accept that any game animation has nothing to do with the result, then you can put behind this 'being rigged' issue.

To me rigged is when some people can affect the result in their favor and others can not, and I do not mean paying Gems. For example, if Tynon employees that play the game would have better odds at getting something (and Dawnseeker has already said that is not the case), then it would be rigged.

well duh, rigged in the way of players not receiving things - establishing a gap in progression - therefore Tynon DOES gain the artificial player need for upgrades, which ofc, can easily be obtained with purchasing gems

Also, everything is pre-determined in this game, there is absolutely no luck/chances

Everyone is complaining of rigging, the game isn't 'rigged' unless we're talking about sailing.

The server generates a RNG once you recruit, reset or transfer a hero so that the sancts and stars are generated to 'upgrade' in a certain sequence. This is the 'predetermined' bit. No one has personally looked at your account and 'fixed' it in a way so they can mess with your head.

The whole thing is random, which is the polar opposite to 'rigged' which would indicate that an outside influence has given an advantage or disadvantage over one player.

I don't think you know the meaning of random, or you haven't spent much on the casino yet ^^

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Originally Posted by Arma_4332056

I don't think you know the meaning of random, or you haven't spent much on the casino yet ^^

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casino is predetermined also. i have tested this.

Well, the game is very much predetermined. I would love the casino to be random, but it isn't. I look 2-3 times a day now, but it never changes and I am not going to spend 20 gems to get 1 Lab Token in a chest. I won't break the rules and say how you can tell what you can get without actually spending the Gems first, but believe me it can be done.

So, it is predetermined and as the predetermination in the Casino doesn't ever reset, I won't be wasting 20 gems.

Well explained Matt! The game definitely makes a LOT of use of the random number generator.

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Originally Posted by jrrtolley_7332441

Well, the game is very much predetermined. I would love the casino to be random, but it isn't. I look 2-3 times a day now, but it never changes and I am not going to spend 20 gems to get 1 Lab Token in a chest. I won't break the rules and say how you can tell what you can get without actually spending the Gems first, but believe me it can be done.

So, it is predetermined and as the predetermination in the Casino doesn't ever reset, I won't be wasting 20 gems.

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Your looking at it in a way that puts a negative light on the game. And its only human to do so.

SO the software did teh RNG ahead of time and stored your next few Casino spins. That doesnt make it rigged. It wont change the outcome of when the RNG is done,(perhaps it could because some RNG make use of the time). Its not like becuase the RNG is done ahead of time you wont win 10k gems.

But yes it does mean the future outcomes are already stored and set in stone and you cant get another result then what is already stored on the server.
This also means someone cant cheat and hack the system to get the results they want.

But one thing I would like to see is the following.

You are allowed once a day or week to do something, for the sake of having something to call it, we shall call it pray.

So you would be allowed once a day or week to pray, and when you pray it forces the software to delete all stored RNG and redo them, which could give you better results or worse results.

Actually, the game is RIGGED up to a point. Predetermined is where the RNG has a count system that matches how much you spend. I proved the system is Predetermined with Catherine (before the game changes). No matter what I did in Tavern, Catherine was FORCED on us in the old game. I spend 5m credits trying to get some other hero but Catherine, but no matter where I clicked, Catherine was always the one that came up on the Shuffle.

Further proof of Predetermined: Once you spend enough credits, you can click on the middle card and get the good hero you want, even if that hero is in the 1st, 2nd, 4th or 5th position before the shuffle. I proved this with one of the other servers I play when I got ONLY the heroes I wanted without getting DUD heroes (blues and whites) outside of Catherine. Generally, I would click the card I saw the hero in... and if I spent enough credits, I would get it. Predetermined!!! Before the game changes, I had Catherine, Mehvidean, Cianna, Calvin, Rhize, Dawnbreaker, Shayd, Smoulder and Adamanti with none of the other Heroes. Each time I had 10 million Credits, I would go to the Tavern, spend about 5 - 8 Million Credits to get the Hero I wanted.

Now, with the new system, I cannot get the hero no matter how many credits until it is Predetermined I will win that hero. But, as mostly White and Blue only show for most Reshuffles, it is more costly to get the heroes you need to saint them. It still doesn't matter what position the Hero shows before Shuffle, if you are predetermined to win it, you will.

So, yes, the areas which uses Shuffle are "Rigged" in the aspect of Ratio of Credits spent to Worth of Heroes. With the New system, this Predetermined "Rigged" system is more evident with the Card Broker. I have not Sold or used any of the card given by the Broker and most of them are Blues I do not use, with occasion Purples. I have yet to get a Gold due to I will NOT waste Gems on the Broker as I will need the gems to open Armor Slots, and I am Not a Coiner (person that spends money) as I do not have the funds to support this game. I barely have funds to support myself.

I have taken programming when I was younger (when Apple II were used in Colleges), and we played with the RNG and know how to Rigged the RNG to predetermine the "Number" we wanted to see. So, yes the RNG can be Rigged to make sure the odds of getting what you want much lower than a straight RNG program. As is, as Straight RNG is not very good as it tends to generate numbers on one end or another. Again, as we played with the RNG, we recorded the outcome of the RNG whether rigged or not rigged.

For example: part of the RNG would be Roll 3d6 +7 with max of 18. so the Results would never be less than 8. So the RNG will only give results of 8 - 18. As long as you set the max, you will NOT get any number over the max set for the RNG you created (1d20, 4d8, etc).

However, the game cannot be Rigged on the fly by the Dev's as they would have to constantly watch every player and that is not possible. However, the program can be set with parameters to make sure the outcome is not always favorable to you.

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Originally Posted by corillan_3783983

Actually, the game is RIGGED up to a point. Predetermined is where the RNG has a count system that matches how much you spend. I proved the system is Predetermined with Catherine (before the game changes). No matter what I did in Tavern, Catherine was FORCED on us in the old game. I spend 5m credits trying to get some other hero but Catherine, but no matter where I clicked, Catherine was always the one that came up on the Shuffle.

Further proof of Predetermined: Once you spend enough credits, you can click on the middle card and get the good hero you want, even if that hero is in the 1st, 2nd, 4th or 5th position before the shuffle. I proved this with one of the other servers I play when I got ONLY the heroes I wanted without getting DUD heroes (blues and whites) outside of Catherine. Generally, I would click the card I saw the hero in... and if I spent enough credits, I would get it. Predetermined!!! Before the game changes, I had Catherine, Mehvidean, Cianna, Calvin, Rhize, Dawnbreaker, Shayd, Smoulder and Adamanti with none of the other Heroes. Each time I had 10 million Credits, I would go to the Tavern, spend about 5 - 8 Million Credits to get the Hero I wanted.

Now, with the new system, I cannot get the hero no matter how many credits until it is Predetermined I will win that hero. But, as mostly White and Blue only show for most Reshuffles, it is more costly to get the heroes you need to saint them. It still doesn't matter what position the Hero shows before Shuffle, if you are predetermined to win it, you will.

So, yes, the areas which uses Shuffle are "Rigged" in the aspect of Ratio of Credits spent to Worth of Heroes. With the New system, this Predetermined "Rigged" system is more evident with the Card Broker. I have not Sold or used any of the card given by the Broker and most of them are Blues I do not use, with occasion Purples. I have yet to get a Gold due to I will NOT waste Gems on the Broker as I will need the gems to open Armor Slots, and I am Not a Coiner (person that spends money) as I do not have the funds to support this game. I barely have funds to support myself.

I have taken programming when I was younger (when Apple II were used in Colleges), and we played with the RNG and know how to Rigged the RNG to predetermine the "Number" we wanted to see. So, yes the RNG can be Rigged to make sure the odds of getting what you want much lower than a straight RNG program. As is, as Straight RNG is not very good as it tends to generate numbers on one end or another. Again, as we played with the RNG, we recorded the outcome of the RNG whether rigged or not rigged.

For example: part of the RNG would be Roll 3d6 +7 with max of 18. so the Results would never be less than 8. So the RNG will only give results of 8 - 18. As long as you set the max, you will NOT get any number over the max set for the RNG you created (1d20, 4d8, etc).

However, the game cannot be Rigged on the fly by the Dev's as they would have to constantly watch every player and that is not possible. However, the program can be set with parameters to make sure the outcome is not always favorable to you.

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Your proof means nothing.
1st catherine is the first hero EVERYONE recruits its programmed in that way. That is not rigged thats just the game. Once you recruit her you can recruit other heroes. It is preset- which does not mean rigged.

2ndly it is not having to spend a certain amount of credits to get a hero. Never was. Your range of 5-8m before the patch proves that.

3rdly yes you can set parameters with RNG - once again does not mean its rigged.
Of course there are conditions and parameters to the RNG. You can not just use straight RNG to determine some of the complexity in this game.
ALso they have it set to make things balanced. Now in the tavern every 20k or so you spend gets you a spirit. Or in rune temple every million coins gets you about 2k exp.

you use the word rigged improperly.
rigged implies malicious intent to most people- And I have seen no malicious intent

My penny's worth. The game is 'rigged' in that I think the odds of winning are predetermined, although tynon likes to pretend they are random. This to me is deceitful. I think the odds of me winning are the same as anyone else's, Tynon has no favourites as far as I can see. What I do find annoying is when Tynon changes the odds without telling us. To me this is them thinking we are to stupid to notice. I just wish tynon would be more upfront, and not treat us all as halfwits, although I probably am one

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Originally Posted by nolansco_5578848

My penny's worth. The game is 'rigged' in that I think the odds of winning are predetermined, although tynon likes to pretend they are random. This to me is deceitful. I think the odds of me winning are the same as anyone else's, Tynon has no favourites as far as I can see. What I do find annoying is when Tynon changes the odds without telling us. To me this is them thinking we are to stupid to notice. I just wish tynon would be more upfront, and not treat us all as halfwits, although I probably am one

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The odds of winning what?
Odds are a statement of the likely hood of an event vs the likely hood of the event not happening. SO odds are always predetermined.

THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS POST is that we are all throwing around words. MOST EVEN ME are using the words improperly. And this misuse of words is giving negative connotations to the game when they are undeserved.

Of course the game is set up to make you spend. Of course you are not going to get lucky often. The game was designed to make a company money. Just like Vegas. Vegas is not there to make gamblers rich, its there to make the business owners rich.

But vegas casinos are not rigged. They dont use loaded dice and wheels. And from what I can see either does Tynon. The game is designed to favor uCool not the player, but if you expected anything different in a F2P model game, you were kidding yourself.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

And from what I can see either does Tynon.

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I assume you meant "And from what I can see neither does Tynon"

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Originally Posted by Andy

I assume you meant "And from what I can see neither does Tynon"

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NO either is used when 2 things are involved
neither is used when more than 2

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Originally Posted by mattp169

NO either is used when 2 things are involved
neither is used when more than 2

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Either is used to place 2 things as multiple options. Ex: We are going to either vegas or reno. Either she quits or I do.
Neither is used to draw a comparison between two items who don't do something. Ex: Vegas doesn't cheat and neither does Tynon. Neither Vegas nor Tynon cheat.

There is no differentiation based on number as both require only 2 objects. The can be extended to include 3+, however, not often.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

NO either is used when 2 things are involved
neither is used when more than 2

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Is english your second language? Neither is used to show that two objects DONT do the afformentioned activity. Either means they DO the activity. Has nothing to do with amount of things involved. Neither would be the correct usage.

On the subject of randomness and predetermined....essentially think of it as this. EVERY random roll you make on your account, every combination of sanctifications, every star amount, every lab setup, every THING, that random roll is made the second you make your account. So no, its not random in that the roll is done EXACTLY when you do the activity, but the randomness of it was determined at some point in time, which doesnt make it any less random. Whether the game determines that I have to use 8 purple stars to go from 12 to 13 stars on Shayd right then and there, or the second I make my account, doesnt change the randomness of it.

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Originally Posted by lockecole_5393515

on the subject of randomness and predetermined....essentially think of it as this. Every random roll you make on your account, every combination of sanctifications, every star amount, every lab setup, every thing, that random roll is made the second you make your account. So no, its not random in that the roll is done exactly when you do the activity, but the randomness of it was determined at some point in time, which doesnt make it any less random. Whether the game determines that i have to use 8 purple stars to go from 12 to 13 stars on shayd right then and there, or the second i make my account, doesnt change the randomness of it.

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exactly my point

and no english is not my second language. I made that whole thing up with either/neither to be a smart ass cuz I am not writing a formal paper and I found it funny that andy who got my point decided to nitpick one word in that post. when he makes typographical and grammatical errors as much as me.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

as much as me.

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Think it should be "as much as I do"

Tynon is a textbook example of rigged games.

To Andy:
If the outcome is decided before you "play" that is a textbook definition of rigged.
The INTENT is obvious since the player has NO CHOICE in the tavern.
Three Card Monty is a rigged game. The slight of hand by the dealer is intended to defraud.
You don't see the Tavern as rigged because you can't detect the slight of hand. Or refuse to.
You have previously admitted that it is "weighted" towards certain outcomes. THAT MEANS IT'S RIGGED.
Yes, I know that other games do the same thing. So what?
Why not have the Tavern be TRULY our choice? Why would that be a bad thing?
The intent of the devs is to get people to spend more cash/gems to get a better outcome. Do you deny that too?
But what if the Tavern WAS our choice? Would more people stay and eventually pay?
We don't know do we? Why not find out? Why don't you ask the devs to make the Tavern a REAL game? Not a rigged one.

Gorgon

Rig: Manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us...q=rigged#rig-2 From the oxford english dictionary. The definition implies fraud: Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.(Oxford) or as it says "Fraudulent": Obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception. (Oxford). I don't think I have to define anything else. To rig something means to commit fraud. to commit fraud there must be criminal deception. Which I could go pull a definition of but it requires malicious intent. Meaning that for Tynon to rig something. They would have to possess malicious intent to purposefully manipulate all aspects of the game to benefit only them and then to present a story that entails the opposite with the intent to deceive their entire player base that the game is programmed in their favor or neutral. RNG programming does not equal "rigged". Calling the RNG in Tynon rigged is akin to calling the average slot machine "Rigged". It's absurd. Get off it :D

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Originally Posted by g346007_1906957

Think it should be "as much as I do"

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sarcasm is lost

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Originally Posted by DrthCaedus

Rig: Manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us...q=rigged#rig-2 From the oxford english dictionary. The definition implies fraud: Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.(Oxford) or as it says "Fraudulent": Obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception. (Oxford). I don't think I have to define anything else. To rig something means to commit fraud. to commit fraud there must be criminal deception. Which I could go pull a definition of but it requires malicious intent. Meaning that for Tynon to rig something. They would have to possess malicious intent to purposefully manipulate all aspects of the game to benefit only them and then to present a story that entails the opposite with the intent to deceive their entire player base that the game is programmed in their favor or neutral. RNG programming does not equal "rigged". Calling the RNG in Tynon rigged is akin to calling the average slot machine "Rigged". It's absurd. Get off it :D

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exactly.

the devs are not intentionally trying to screw with us.
The house always wins in the end
if the house didnt there would be no house

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Originally Posted by jweb_4_8938282

Tynon is a textbook example of rigged games.

To Andy:
If the outcome is decided before you "play" that is a textbook definition of rigged.
The INTENT is obvious since the player has NO CHOICE in the tavern.
Three Card Monty is a rigged game. The slight of hand by the dealer is intended to defraud.
You don't see the Tavern as rigged because you can't detect the slight of hand. Or refuse to.
You have previously admitted that it is "weighted" towards certain outcomes. THAT MEANS IT'S RIGGED.
Yes, I know that other games do the same thing. So what?
Why not have the Tavern be TRULY our choice? Why would that be a bad thing?
The intent of the devs is to get people to spend more cash/gems to get a better outcome. Do you deny that too?
But what if the Tavern WAS our choice? Would more people stay and eventually pay?
We don't know do we? Why not find out? Why don't you ask the devs to make the Tavern a REAL game? Not a rigged one.

Gorgon

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Urban dictionary


1. The word rigged is used to describe situations where unfair advantages are given to one side of a conflict.


From Dictionary.com


rig [rig] Show IPA
verb (used with object), rigged, rig·ging.
4.
to manipulate fraudulently: to rig prices.

Deciding the result ahead of time does not give an unfair advantage as long as the same rules are used for every one, and that is the way it is in the game. It also does not involve fraudulent manipulation (like in the Three Card MontY) because there is now fraud involved when the game is working as designed.

Just because players think the because they get to pick a card means that they have a way to influence the outcome when it does not, does not mean it is fraudulent or it give and unfair advantage to anyone. Therefore it does not meet the definition of rigged as stated above. What it does means is that the player does not understand how the game works.

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Originally Posted by jweb_4_8938282

Tynon is a textbook example of rigged games.

To Andy:
If the outcome is decided before you "play" that is a textbook definition of rigged.
The INTENT is obvious since the player has NO CHOICE in the tavern.
Three Card Monty is a rigged game. The slight of hand by the dealer is intended to defraud.
You don't see the Tavern as rigged because you can't detect the slight of hand. Or refuse to.
You have previously admitted that it is "weighted" towards certain outcomes. THAT MEANS IT'S RIGGED.
Yes, I know that other games do the same thing. So what?
Why not have the Tavern be TRULY our choice? Why would that be a bad thing?
The intent of the devs is to get people to spend more cash/gems to get a better outcome. Do you deny that too?
But what if the Tavern WAS our choice? Would more people stay and eventually pay?
We don't know do we? Why not find out? Why don't you ask the devs to make the Tavern a REAL game? Not a rigged one.

Gorgon

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Rigged has the connotation that there is gambling going on, and that you are gambling against the house (I guess that would be us) and that we misrepresented the odds of you winning. None of these things are true, so the game is not "rigged."

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Originally Posted by Dawnseeker

Rigged has the connotation that there is gambling going on, and that you are gambling against the house (I guess that would be us) and that we misrepresented the odds of you winning. None of these things are true, so the game is not "rigged."

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"The house" lol,is it rigged?Your fate is set.Can you change it?yes,play the house lol

I kinda doubt that the output of the rng is stored for an indefinite amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Revan

I kinda doubt that the output of the rng is stored for an indefinite amount of time.

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yes i think it is.

So let say the rng is done for the next 10 guild chests. after you open 5 or so it RNGs up another 5 that get tacked on to the other 5 that were still stored.
Then same for the next so many star attempts per hero
then so many sainting attempts per hero
then casino rolls
Its not like theres an infinite amount fo things stored. They can manage teh amount of memory used. And the RNG results arent much data to store per acct. It probably takes less memory then the aerie map

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Originally Posted by mattp169

yes i think it is.

So let say the rng is done for the next 10 guild chests. after you open 5 or so it RNGs up another 5 that get tacked on to the other 5 that were still stored.
Then same for the next so many star attempts per hero
then so many sainting attempts per hero
then casino rolls
Its not like theres an infinite amount fo things stored. They can manage teh amount of memory used. And the RNG results arent much data to store per acct. It probably takes less memory then the aerie map

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I hadn't thought of doing it like that. Anyways I doubt tynon will ever tell how it works so I'm not gonna argue over it.

Thank you matt for making this rather entertaining thread.

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Originally Posted by Dawnseeker

Rigged has the connotation that there is gambling going on, and that you are gambling against the house (I guess that would be us) and that we misrepresented the odds of you winning. None of these things are true, so the game is not "rigged."

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Wrong, because you guys INDEED do misrepresent the actual odds of getting an item. Heavens Tavern being the main example. In reality, seeing a gold and a purple in a 5 card draw would lead you to think that you have a 40% chance of getting either of those two good cards. When in reality that is the furthest from the truth. If anything its more like 1% chance, if that. Hell if theres a purple and a gold in a 5 card draw and I utilize both gem turnovers, 99% of the time its NEITHER of those cards. So in actuality those good cards are just there to lead players on who dont know any better. Again misleading.

Guild chest rewards, misleading. Quest rewards, misleading. Everything about the game is misleading from the WAY its represented. Only those of us who understand the mechanics behind the game understand not to be sucked in by your misleading tactics...but in the end that doesnt change the fact that they're misleading. You cant compare it to casino games because there is no false chance of getting the card you want in a casino game, if theres three cards down you have a 33% chance of getting the one you want.

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Originally Posted by Purpledrank_6263329

Wrong, because you guys INDEED do misrepresent the actual odds of getting an item. Heavens Tavern being the main example. In reality, seeing a gold and a purple in a 5 card draw would lead you to think that you have a 40% chance of getting either of those two good cards. When in reality that is the furthest from the truth. If anything its more like 1% chance, if that. Hell if theres a purple and a gold in a 5 card draw and I utilize both gem turnovers, 99% of the time its NEITHER of those cards. So in actuality those good cards are just there to lead players on who dont know any better. Again misleading.

Guild chest rewards, misleading. Quest rewards, misleading. Everything about the game is misleading from the WAY its represented. Only those of us who understand the mechanics behind the game understand not to be sucked in by your misleading tactics...but in the end that doesnt change the fact that they're misleading. You cant compare it to casino games because there is no false chance of getting the card you want in a casino game, if theres three cards down you have a 33% chance of getting the one you want.

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See heres the thing with tavern.
you say its misleading because you say there should be a equal chance of drawing any of the 5 cards shown. You cant prove one way or the other if that is true. We all speculate that it is not, but cant prove it.

Take a bag. Put 4 black rocks in it and 1 red one. You have a 20% chance to get the red right.

take a rock out. its black. but the rock back in and try again. you get a black again. do it again and again and again. you could easily do 20 pulls of all black or 20 pulls of all red. You are unlikely going to do 20 straight pulls of all red, but 20 straight pulls of all all black is likely.

So youd have to prove that the software is designed to not give a equal chance of drawing one of the 5 cards shown and the only way you could do that is to see the code. Because theorectical probability and statistical probability will rarely ever match up you cant used the observed data to prove it.

The observation that its no where near an equal chance and there for its misleading and therefore rigged is akin to saying watching some one flipping a coin 100 times and seeing it come up heads 75 times and claiming the coin is rigged.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

See heres the thing with tavern.
you say its misleading because you say there should be a equal chance of drawing any of the 5 cards shown. You cant prove one way or the other if that is true. We all speculate that it is not, but cant prove it.

Take a bag. Put 4 black rocks in it and 1 red one. You have a 20% chance to get the red right.

take a rock out. its black. but the rock back in and try again. you get a black again. do it again and again and again. you could easily do 20 pulls of all black or 20 pulls of all red. You are unlikely going to do 20 straight pulls of all red, but 20 straight pulls of all all black is likely.

So youd have to prove that the software is designed to not give a equal chance of drawing one of the 5 cards shown and the only way you could do that is to see the code. Because theorectical probability and statistical probability will rarely ever match up you cant used the observed data to prove it.

The observation that its no where near an equal chance and there for its misleading and therefore rigged is akin to saying watching some one flipping a coin 100 times and seeing it come up heads 75 times and claiming the coin is rigged.

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The problem with your argument is that these things have been used thousands of times - probably more like 100s of thousands. Given the amount of times the cards have been shuffled and turned, if th eodds were actually 1 in 5, it would be somewhere close to that given the number of times it's been done. And, from being on 2 different servers, I can tell you it isn't anywhere near 1 in 5.

That said, I totally understand the cards are only a representation of what's there - that they don't actually represent the odds. But, some wouldn't know that - at least not at first. That's what some are upset about. But, every game I've played of this sort does the same thing, so I don't see a real problem, but can understand those that do.

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Originally Posted by corillan_3783983

So, yes, the areas which uses Shuffle are "Rigged" in the aspect of Ratio of Credits spent to Worth of Heroes. With the New system, this Predetermined "Rigged" system is more evident with the Card Broker. I have not Sold or used any of the card given by the Broker and most of them are Blues I do not use, with occasion Purples. I have yet to get a Gold due to I will NOT waste Gems on the Broker as I will need the gems to open Armor Slots, and I am Not a Coiner (person that spends money) as I do not have the funds to support this game. I barely have funds to support myself.
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starting Monday of last week using no gem flips I got blue, Dawn, Alexa, blue, Rhize, Rhize, saffron, blue, blue, Cianna.

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Originally Posted by Purpledrank_6263329

Wrong, because you guys INDEED do misrepresent the actual odds of getting an item. Heavens Tavern being the main example. In reality, seeing a gold and a purple in a 5 card draw would lead you to think that you have a 40% chance of getting either of those two good cards. When in reality that is the furthest from the truth. If anything its more like 1% chance, if that. Hell if theres a purple and a gold in a 5 card draw and I utilize both gem turnovers, 99% of the time its NEITHER of those cards. So in actuality those good cards are just there to lead players on who dont know any better. Again misleading.

Guild chest rewards, misleading. Quest rewards, misleading. Everything about the game is misleading from the WAY its represented. Only those of us who understand the mechanics behind the game understand not to be sucked in by your misleading tactics...but in the end that doesnt change the fact that they're misleading. You cant compare it to casino games because there is no false chance of getting the card you want in a casino game, if theres three cards down you have a 33% chance of getting the one you want.

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There is no misrepresentation. It is documented in the wiki that the odds are not 20%. http://tynon.wikia.com/wiki/Heaven_Tavern

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Originally Posted by Andy

There is no misrepresentation. It is documented in the wiki that the odds are not 20%. http://tynon.wikia.com/wiki/Heaven_Tavern

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Then why show the heros? I havent checked the wiki and I ALREADY know this, whats to think your typical player in this game will have checked a Wiki, let alone that exact page? Just because its in the fine print somewhere doesnt mean its not being misrepresented. Last I checked the Wiki is made by the playerbase also, so not like uCool is going out of their way to let the entire playerbase know this.