Banish Cap - Yes another thread

Removing the cap would imbalance the game... It would suddenly become about who can make it for 2 specific events most often and deal more damage than everyone else in them. The players who are on top and can make every banish would be raking in the absurdly large sums of coins at the 6.25 billion & up banishes. Pretty much every other event would become worthless because banish would be the only one that matters upon reaching the 6.25 billion hp one.

Updating the rewards for other events such as ragnorak and heaven's palace would be better and they could also add new events instead.

I think the fact is that many people are worried about the effects on player incomes and game longevity and balance is the cap was just dropped completely and suddenly. But in fact, this is not what most rational players are proposing.

MattP proposed some good alternatives in between the current cap and dropping the cap completely. I have proposed another alternative that I will reiterate below.

The problem is that Banish incomes grow exponentially because boss HP grow exponentially, compounded with the fact that players damage can grow exponentially too. Yet the only, "cost" of any upgrade that grows exponentially is runes, which grow at a factor or 2 while banish hp grow at a factor of 5. Other costs, such as blacksmith, talent, and cards (in terms of the amount of credits spent to gain a certain amount of spirits) exhibit linear, or at most quadratic growth.

A result would be to either reduce the factor of hp gain (as proposed by MattP), or even more effectively, eliminate the factor of income gain while maintaining the factor of hp growth, thus solving the problem of exponential growth in damage.

This could be implemented as such:

250M and below: 1M coin for each 10M damage done.
1.25B: 1M coin for each 12.5M damage done
6.25B: 1M coin for each 25M damage done
31.25B: 1M coin for each 50M damage done

Under this system, a player doing the MAXIMUM THEORETICAL DAMAGE POSSIBLE cannot earn over 100M coin at any Banish.

And while they are at it, they can add a coin reward equal to the credit reward x2.5 to Rag and then multiply the rewards by 10 * (Player Level / 100) while giving rank 1 a bonush 10M coin, rank 2 a bonus of 7.5M coin, and rank 3 a bonus of 5M coin, and ranks 5-10 a bonus of 2M coin.

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Originally Posted by Revan

Removing the cap would imbalance the game... It would suddenly become about who can make it for 2 specific events most often and deal more damage than everyone else in them. The players who are on top and can make every banish would be raking in the absurdly large sums of coins at the 6.25 billion & up banishes. Pretty much every other event would become worthless because banish would be the only one that matters upon reaching the 6.25 billion hp one.

Updating the rewards for other events such as ragnorak and heaven's palace would be better and they could also add new events instead.

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See thi sis the problem.
1. I agree we could update all rewards
and
2. we could use more events

but that does not solve the real issue in banish.

Everyone is worried about how many coins the top players will take in. -its more important to realize how little the small players will get after a while. Once you get a few players with 2 subs having them all in make sit pointless for small players. It makes the event pointless for most of the realm. That is what most of you are not realizing. Because unless I quit - I will do every banish I can - since it is and always has been the best source of income in the game. So that means even less and less for everyone else. Because I am about to get 2 subs, then eventually 3 subs, and im gonna be at max offensive output soon. Tynon seems to want that - so there is only 1 or 2 mega players per realm. Which I think is the wrong model. It would be better to enrich the prize pool. Take away the cap. Incentive the smaller players to participate more in the banish events - allowing them to power up more - therby retaining more players - and getting more money for the business.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

See thi sis the problem.
1. I agree we could update all rewards
and
2. we could use more events

but that does not solve the real issue in banish.

Everyone is worried about how many coins the top players will take in. -its more important to realize how little the small players will get after a while. Once you get a few players with 2 subs having them all in make sit pointless for small players. It makes the event pointless for most of the realm. That is what most of you are not realizing. Because unless I quit - I will do every banish I can - since it is and always has been the best source of income in the game. So that means even less and less for everyone else. Because I am about to get 2 subs, then eventually 3 subs, and im gonna be at max offensive output soon. Tynon seems to want that - so there is only 1 or 2 mega players per realm. Which I think is the wrong model. It would be better to enrich the prize pool. Take away the cap. Incentive the smaller players to participate more in the banish events - allowing them to power up more - therby retaining more players - and getting more money for the business.

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Exactly, small players DONT CARE about anything other than if they think they themselves can get enough coins/credits to grow at a rate they want to. They don't care how much coins/credits players like Exec and Blayd or MattP gets. And this cap is driving them to give up!

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Originally Posted by Herby

It's 40m credits.

No its not going to hurt anyone. Just your guildmates in forest realm. It's not the cap thats hurting them. Its you and Spec raking in most of the rewards. If you feel so bad for them, don't boost.

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pretty much spot on from Herby. Just take turns boosting if your truly concerned about your guild members.

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Originally Posted by Yelsha

Under this system, a player doing the MAXIMUM THEORETICAL DAMAGE POSSIBLE cannot earn over 100M coin at any Banish.

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Has someone calculated the maximum theoretical damage? Wouldn't there always be a small chance of an incredibly long stun?

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Originally Posted by g346007_1906957

Has someone calculated the maximum theoretical damage? Wouldn't there always be a small chance of an incredibly long stun?

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It'd be difficult to calculate an exact maximum due to unknown stun chances.
Its possible to estimate to look at the existing top players who already have maxxed runes and talents and nearly maxxed stars/weapons/saintings by seeing how much potential damage they can add on per hit.

The current top average damages are in the 30-40M per round range over a sufficiently long Banish (shorter Banishes tend to have higher averages for an unexplained reason).

Hence we can figure that the highest sustainable damage using current mechanic is in the range of 40-50M damage per round. (4 Stunners, Lvl 12 runes, Max BS/Talents, Max stars).

about maximum damage..the question would be would the 30 round limit be enforced in banish? so even if u could get stuns in every round it surly wouldnt go for ever? surly the round cap would kick in and just end teh round?

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Originally Posted by Yelsha

It'd be difficult to calculate an exact maximum due to unknown stun chances.
Its possible to estimate to look at the existing top players who already have maxxed runes and talents and nearly maxxed stars/weapons/saintings by seeing how much potential damage they can add on per hit.

The current top average damages are in the 30-40M per round range over a sufficiently long Banish (shorter Banishes tend to have higher averages for an unexplained reason).

Hence we can figure that the highest sustainable damage using current mechanic is in the range of 40-50M damage per round. (4 Stunners, Lvl 12 runes, Max BS/Talents, Max stars).

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i did a 12% round on the 1.25B banish once = 150m

edit: i use 2 stunners

the theorecticall max damage is impossible to do

It requires all yoru heroes to be 18 stars
the first stunner to miss so main dies
all heroes fully sainted
so they have just enough crit saints to always crit the rest must be all maxed gold skill attack
level 115 swords/styaves spirits
with dragon swords/staves an dspirits
level 115 sos and pa
always keep boss stunned
plus a few othe rthings i am sure i am forgetting to get the theorectical max damage

and to do 150m damage in a round would require each hero to avg doing 1.25m damage per hit and go the full 30 rounds. Im not saying thats impossible - but finiding taht hard to believe. My lance has over 91k phy/skill attack and only crits for about 1.2m on the high end

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Originally Posted by mattp169

the theorecticall max damage is impossible to do

It requires all yoru heroes to be 18 stars
the first stunner to miss so main dies
all heroes fully sainted
so they have just enough crit saints to always crit the rest must be all maxed gold skill attack
level 115 swords/styaves spirits
with dragon swords/staves an dspirits
level 115 sos and pa
always keep boss stunned
plus a few othe rthings i am sure i am forgetting to get the theorectical max damage

and to do 150m damage in a round would require each hero to avg doing 1.25m damage per hit and go the full 30 rounds. Im not saying thats impossible - but finiding taht hard to believe. My lance has over 91k phy/skill attack and only crits for about 1.2m on the high end

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It would be more damage if the first stunner hits but doesn't stun rather than missing. The heroes in formation affect it as well - technically it would be possible to go 30 rounds with one stunner and the rest as DDs, max runes of course.

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Originally Posted by jkwongfl_7919855

It would be more damage if the first stunner hits but doesn't stun rather than missing. The heroes in formation affect it as well - technically it would be possible to go 30 rounds with one stunner and the rest as DDs, max runes of course.

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Going the full 30 round is very possible with 2 stunners.

I'll let you all figure out how that can be best achieved and it is not with a stunner hitting first in formation.

Without using herja and lance, it is very possible to get avg of 45mil to max of 70mil per round and reach the 30 round cap. I'd say to a point where Pompey self destructs himself before the fight is over.

Edit: This is with only 70 spirit and 100 weapons. 110 spirit and weapons + added HP for pompey would yield even higher damage output than what I just stated.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

but that does not solve the real issue in banish.

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Yes, it doesn't, but the real issue with banish is that it has grown to be way more important than the other events. Now imagine another 5x increase with the 6.25b banish. We all know this (even if we don't want to admit it).

I'm guessing the mounts are only the tip of the iceberg in fixing this. They will start to introduce new content that will cost ALOT more and with that, they will bump up the rewards on all events, including increasing the cap on banish, maybe even re-adjusting all lower banishes so that each boss upgrade is 4x reward while hp increase remains at 5x. Or maybe keeping rewards at 5x, but increasing hp (we've already seen them test it. Of course, they'll just call it a bug).

At least that'll fix the banish caps for you. You just need to be patient. Something will be done, there's little doubt about it.

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Originally Posted by Yelsha

The problem is that Banish incomes grow exponentially because boss HP grow exponentially, compounded with the fact that players damage can grow exponentially too. Yet the only, "cost" of any upgrade that grows exponentially is runes, which grow at a factor or 2 while banish hp grow at a factor of 5. Other costs, such as blacksmith, talent, and cards (in terms of the amount of credits spent to gain a certain amount of spirits) exhibit linear, or at most quadratic growth.

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Ok, I posted before I read this. Yelsha is right about this. The problem is the exponential nature of the banish growth. A smaller multiplier doesn't solve the problem, just delays it. What Yelsha proposes does make a lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by Riot

Going the full 30 round is very possible with 2 stunners.

I'll let you all figure out how that can be best achieved and it is not with a stunner hitting first in formation.

Without using herja and lance, it is very possible to get avg of 45mil to max of 70mil per round and reach the 30 round cap. I'd say to a point where Pompey self destructs himself before the fight is over.

Edit: This is with only 70 spirit and 100 weapons. 110 spirit and weapons + added HP for pompey would yield even higher damage output than what I just stated.

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Quite obvious...

xxx Shayd xxx
Blood Pompey Main
xxx Aphrodite xxx

Sub 1: Scipio
Sub 2: Khan/Theseus

Define: geocentric
- having or representing the earth as the center

Server 1 players should stop thinking that the world of Tynon revolves around them.
They are just as equal as any other server who revolves around Tynon.


Matt, what happened to your doomsday 4-4-14 prediction? I thought you and your buddies would be playing that game by now? :p

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Originally Posted by Herby

Matt, what happened to your doomsday 4-4-14 prediction? I thought you and your buddies would be playing that game by now? :p[/FONT]

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I've been wondering about that as well.

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Originally Posted by Herby

Define: geocentric
- having or representing the earth as the center

Server 1 players should stop thinking that the world of Tynon revolves around them.
They are just as equal as any other server who revolves around Tynon.

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Indeed Herby.

Yet what I find rather curious is how people yell to have the highest-paying event to pay exponentially more, without any yelling about the several other events that pay far less.

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Originally Posted by Yelsha

Quite obvious...

xxx Shayd xxx
Blood Pompey Main
xxx Aphrodite xxx

Sub 1: Scipio
Sub 2: Khan/Theseus

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That is not it and as a hint you need to use calvin to achieve this without herja.

Alternatively, you can just stick with a Lance + Herja + Aphro setup, and gain around 40-60m damage each round consistently.

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Originally Posted by Riot

That is not it and as a hint you need to use calvin to achieve this without herja.

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Well there are numerous ways to achieve 50M-70M dmg to round when you have access to Aphro, 2nd sub, full judgment sets on all your heroes, and max runes.
I'm sure you have a good form for Banish, but other forms can easily get into the same damage ranges.

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Define: geocentric
- having or representing the earth as the center

Server 1 players should stop thinking that the world of Tynon revolves around them.
They are just as equal as any other server who revolves around Tynon.

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Ok Server 3 feels this way too.

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Originally Posted by Herby

Define: geocentric
- having or representing the earth as the center

Server 1 players should stop thinking that the world of Tynon revolves around them.
They are just as equal as any other server who revolves around Tynon.


Matt, what happened to your doomsday 4-4-14 prediction? I thought you and your buddies would be playing that game by now? :p

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I believe it was if tynon stayed at their non productive rate they were on.
Tynon really stepped up their game.
In numerous threads there has been thanks to the Tynon team for their hard work and effort they have put into the game.
They have done one very important thing that has made the most difference. They have listened to what the general player base had for ideas and used them.

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Originally Posted by DaBooMan

I believe it was if tynon stayed at their non productive rate they were on.
Tynon really stepped up their game.
In numerous threads there has been thanks to the Tynon team for their hard work and effort they have put into the game.
They have done one very important thing that has made the most difference. They have listened to what the general player base had for ideas and used them.

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I agree with this, in many ways the developers really listen to their customers. Now they just need to be better at Communications with the players. Posting all patch notes on forum and having a "under Development"- thread about future updates would really help

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Originally Posted by DaBooMan

I believe it was if tynon stayed at their non productive rate they were on.
Tynon really stepped up their game.
In numerous threads there has been thanks to the Tynon team for their hard work and effort they have put into the game.
They have done one very important thing that has made the most difference. They have listened to what the general player base had for ideas and used them.

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Originally Posted by Nymeria

I agree with this, in many ways the developers really listen to their customers. Now they just need to be better at Communications with the players. Posting all patch notes on forum and having a "under Development"- thread about future updates would really help

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Agreed on both of these.

ANd herby if you think im being server 1centric, you are dead wrong. This will effect more then just server 1. Im sorry you do not see it yet. Actually I am glad you don't see it yet. Because noone should be forced to hold back in events to help their team mates out. No one should be punished for doing well in the game. And thats what the banish cap does. Server 1 feels it the most because of the number of power players we have on the server and having so many players on the server, and other factors. But if it happens to server 1 - theres a good chance it will happen on other servers. Its just a matter of time.

You and I disagree alot but you know what - when either of us has a point - even when we disagree - the point is usually still valid and a change happens eventually. It may not be the change we suggested - but the change helps.

The fact they needed to but a cap in place suggests a change is needed. I am hoping the cap was a stop-gap measure until they can fully implement what needs done. But at this point the cap is doing nothing but punishing players for success.

I think whnever tynon increase the rune cap they should remove the limit from banish too

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Originally Posted by DaBooMan

I believe it was if tynon stayed at their non productive rate they were on.
Tynon really stepped up their game.
In numerous threads there has been thanks to the Tynon team for their hard work and effort they have put into the game.
They have done one very important thing that has made the most difference. They have listened to what the general player base had for ideas and used them.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

Agreed on both of these.

ANd herby if you think im being server 1centric, you are dead wrong. This will effect more then just server 1. Im sorry you do not see it yet. Actually I am glad you don't see it yet. Because noone should be forced to hold back in events to help their team mates out. No one should be punished for doing well in the game. And thats what the banish cap does. Server 1 feels it the most because of the number of power players we have on the server and having so many players on the server, and other factors. But if it happens to server 1 - theres a good chance it will happen on other servers. Its just a matter of time.

You and I disagree alot but you know what - when either of us has a point - even when we disagree - the point is usually still valid and a change happens eventually. It may not be the change we suggested - but the change helps.

The fact they needed to but a cap in place suggests a change is needed. I am hoping the cap was a stop-gap measure until they can fully implement what needs done. But at this point the cap is doing nothing but punishing players for success.

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Maybe you both just want to admit that TESO sucks :p

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Originally Posted by Herby

Maybe you both just want to admit that TESO sucks :p

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First off, I played the beta AND IT IS AWESOME. But not my cup of tea atm.
Secondly, Many are decided to wait for the console version to release
thirdly, we have lost many players form this game since its release - coincidence? Maybe?
fourthly - uCool has improved the game much -= so its a totally different story now

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Originally Posted by mattp169

First off, I played the beta AND IT IS AWESOME. But not my cup of tea atm.
Secondly, Many are decided to wait for the console version to release
thirdly, we have lost many players form this game since its release - coincidence? Maybe?
fourthly - uCool has improved the game much -= so its a totally different story now

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If you're looking for a console MMO, FF14 is as good as it gets.

Honestly speaking Tynon aren't going to change anything or remove the cap. I've read both sides of the argument and see right and wrongs in each.

I tried to get the community to see the issues surrounding the Banish cap months ago and got some what of a lukewarm response. I mildly suspect the minor 'shrug off' then has calcified the devs decision regarding Banish. Now it's all too little too late, especially since it's affecting more and more players.

Do what we do in s4 Forest, avoid upgrading to 6.25b or suck it up.

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Originally Posted by Herby

If you're looking for a console MMO, FF14 is as good as it gets.

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ESO is as good as it gets and then some.
But tynon is 100% better since the talk of ESO.
As Dawn has stated before uCool are a small company and are trying very hard to deliver what us as players want. Long as this keeps up they are welcome to my time and money.
In June i will be getting ESO on xbox one but the beauty of console gaming is I can play tynon at same time.
Best of both worlds for me. ;)

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Originally Posted by Morgan le Fay

Honestly speaking Tynon aren't going to change anything or remove the cap. I've read both sides of the argument and see right and wrongs in each.

I tried to get the community to see the issues surrounding the Banish cap months ago and got some what of a lukewarm response. I mildly suspect the minor 'shrug off' then has calcified the devs decision regarding Banish. Now it's all too little too late, especially since it's affecting more and more players.

Do what we do in s4 Forest, avoid upgrading to 6.25b or suck it up.

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I was the first to say the cap needs gone. And I am still saying and will keep saying it until something changes in the game. And you can suck it up all you want. When you guys start getting 2or 3 big hitters in a realm with 2 subs and aprho. Its gonna be a lot to suck up.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

I was the first to say the cap needs gone. And I am still saying and will keep saying it until something changes in the game. And you can suck it up all you want. When you guys start getting 2or 3 big hitters in a realm with 2 subs and aprho. Its gonna be a lot to suck up.

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Fire Realm, server 1 6.25 Boss. 55 Mins of refreshing and 1.2b damage dealt, 1st place. 16m coins = Punishment, Slap in the face for doing well.
I dont care what anyone says about the cap, it was and still is a bad idea.
The guild I happen to be in right now has tried several things to keep us from getting the large boss. It's not working anymore. Everything that has been tried either hurts players or just doesn't work, not to mention goes against the mechanics of the game. Now, we are stuck with the large boss and banish is a waste of time. I don't have 55m of time to refresh and if you don't refresh, your rewards are worse x10.

For all you people who keep flaming the "suck it up" arguement, you really don't have any idea. Now, Banish is to coins/creds as Ragnarok is to Rep.

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Originally Posted by Deucalion

For all you people who keep flaming the "suck it up" arguement, you really don't have any idea. Now, Banish is to coins/creds as Ragnarok is to Rep.

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Oh I know very well thank you, but I'm just being realistic. If Tynon were going to change it they'd done so when this argument first began. I'm afraid whether we agree to it or not we're stuck with it.

First World Tynon problems? lol

# of Tynon realms that have the 6.25B hp boss = 0.01%?

Yeah its a priority sure.

I dug out these two official responses by Dawn

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Originally Posted by Dawnseeker

The reason Baal's health increases is to make sure he's around long enough for everyone to get a crack at him. We don't want the event lasting less than 15 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Dawnseeker

We're not prepared to lift the cap, as there would be a real problem with high end player growth outpacing everything else in the game.

What would people thinking of having alternate bonuses for killing a tougher banish boss? Maybe a buff or boost of some kind temporarily, based on the HP of the boss killed?

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Morgan, I think your choice of quotes from Dawn are spot on, of course... that's why you get the big money ;) Yes, I think players that have seniority (ie: likely higher power) do deserve incentive to continue to work to build their toons on the older servers perhaps with suggested boosts/buffs determined by HP of boss killed. It's a shame you can't please all the people all of the time, but then, if tynon were an unpopular game, that might be a possibility. So again, there must be empathy, understanding, communication, and finally, compromise. Personally, I've thought heavily about starting my own thread about banish events. But it would be on the topic of backgrounds. With a 2d game like tynon, with such obviously aesthetically-minded artists making everything so pretty... how impossible would it be to have, say... different backgrounds each day/week for cerb and baal? Nevermind... I'm going to start my own thread instead of hijacking this one ;)

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Originally Posted by Morgan le Fay

Oh I know very well thank you, but I'm just being realistic. If Tynon were going to change it they'd done so when this argument first began. I'm afraid whether we agree to it or not we're stuck with it.

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I know what your saying, but just because we are stuck with it, doesn't mean we shouldn't be speaking out about how ridiculous it is. Just because it doesn't "look" like we may get our way, doesn't mean we should all just give up.

@ Herby - Everyone is holding back from triggering the 6.25 bosses, so your out of thin air percentage you just made up means nothing.

Banish is a problem, that is something that everyone can agree on. It IS broken and needs to be reconfigured to fit into current gameplay, as it isn't even close to where it should be. The whole game surrounding Banish has been patched, repatched and patched again. It's not even close to being the same game we started playing out of Beta. It makes sense that maybe banish should be brought up to date as well. The arena was, I see no reason they can't update Banish also.

Ok I posted this in another thread but its worth seeing cuz I think this idea has some serious merit

how to balance banish across all servers short and simple

1. remove cap
2. make it so it takes beating the banish in 5 minutes to unlock next banish
3. make it so you have to complete banish in 45 minutes to keep the banish level
4. Increase the banish levels so there are more hp levels. so 500m,750m,1b,1.5b.3b etc etc. Not sure of the math but you get the idea
5. Knock everyone's banish down at least 1 level if not 2 or 3 depending on how many are added in.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

I was the first to say the cap needs gone. And I am still saying and will keep saying it until something changes in the game. And you can suck it up all you want. When you guys start getting 2or 3 big hitters in a realm with 2 subs and aprho. Its gonna be a lot to suck up.

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what if you are wrong though? on our server i own banishes as much as +40% over the strongest players and am behind on power as much as 15%. i do 35-45 ragna streaks, sink any boat i want and have players texting me when they see other players who we grief and i am leader of the number 1 guild own all except one cities (that we decided to give away (without the idiot B to A pretend strategy)) against TWO other major top 10 guilds and also against all you previously said about game mechanics, GW rules, etc and whatever you imply. i think you are just wrong. now you can choose to hate me and modify or delete my post again but only knowing that you are wrong. further you have to stop assuming that your server is the vast majority and that you are right in whatever you say and everything you do applies for all other servers.

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Originally Posted by mattp169

Ok I posted this in another thread but its worth seeing cuz I think this idea has some serious merit

how to balance banish across all servers short and simple

1. remove cap
2. make it so it takes beating the banish in 5 minutes to unlock next banish
3. make it so you have to complete banish in 45 minutes to keep the banish level
4. Increase the banish levels so there are more hp levels. so 500m,750m,1b,1.5b.3b etc etc. Not sure of the math but you get the idea
5. Knock everyone's banish down at least 1 level if not 2 or 3 depending on how many are added in.

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1: no need
2: hell no
3: i dont think you gonna die if its 45 or 57 minutes lol
4: why?
5: again, only because you are server 1 it doesnt apply for all other servers... ftw