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Could you make an argument? This is not a vote, it's a discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby
Why should some servers be forced to share 100M per banish among 20 players (5M each) whereas others should have almost 100M for one player? I don't see the cap being effective here.
By saying this Herby you conceded that there is an issue, it is not up to us to demand change's just point out where we think they should be made and the majority agree that there needs to be something done because the cap isn't "balanced" to effort we put in or the progression we are making.Quote:
A moderate increase in the cap for coins/credits would be justifiable, as there are more players needed to take down a 6.25b hp boss.
The only petty thing here is you Herby there is an relevant conversation going on here and we are getting to the bottom of the issue if you don't wont to be constructive please don't post and it is not your place to ask for it to be closed.Quote:
If you don't like the cap for the 6.25b boss, don't trigger the boss in the first place.
Now can this thread please be closed, or just die lol
I hope Tynon is spending more time and effort on new Sirius set bosses, level 110 quests, and Royal arena heroes, than petty issues like this.
To elaborate on Matt's suggestion, how about based rewards like this:
The Set-up:
First 0-50M damage:
1,000 coin per 10,000 damage
400 credit per 10,000 damage
10 rep per 1000k damage
To crit boss, 150 crit min is needed and to stun 'reliably' 120 hit rating is needed.
50M-250M damage:
500 coin per 10,000 damage
200 credit per 10,000 damage
8 rep per 1000k damage
To crit boss, 175 crit min is needed and to stun 'reliably' 150 hit rating is needed.
250M-500M damage:
250 coin per 10,000 damage
100 credit per 10,000 damage
6 rep per 1000k damage
To crit boss, 200 crit min is needed, to stun, 'reliably' 180 hit rating is needed.
500M-1000M damage:
125 coin per 10,000 damage
50 credit per 10,000 damage
4 rep per 1000k damage
To crit boss, 225 crit min is needed, to stun, 'reliably' 210 hit rating is needed.
1000M+ damage:
100 coin per 10,000 damage
25 credit per 10,000 damage
2 rep per 1000k damage
To crit boss, 250 crit min is needed, to stun, 'reliably' 240 hit rating is needed.
The Justifications:
This means the more damage a player does, the less rewards he is getting for each additional point of damage. This causes the income growth curve to even out, rather than to grow at an increasing rate. Furthermore, it also makes it more difficult to increase damage at a rapid rate, since it forces players to build up their runes in order to maintain the same damage output as they do additional damage, otherwise they will lose damage from not being able to crit the boss and more so from being unable to effectively stun the boss. This reels in the rapid damage growth, and even more so income growth.
As a comparison point, the 250M-500M damage range represents an approximation of the crit/hit-rating needed to crit/stun current 1.25B bosses.
I'd imagine the 1000M+ range roughly approxmiates the 6.25B bosses. At this range means, a player with even L12 runes cannot crit/stun effectively unless serious investment is made into saintings, which is expensive both credit wise and gem-wise, to get the proper saintings.
Lastly, this makes players able to progress in the game regardless of what server/realm they are in. The current banish caps will eventually cause all servers and realms to reach low populations, since with the cap, the bigger players are actually increasing the percentage of the damage they can do while the smaller players are decreasing their percentages. This will cause all realms to reach the same population- 2-4 big players per realm. So rather than turning the more populous servers into less populous servers, shouldn't the goal be to turn the less populous servers into more populous ones by giving everyone a chance to progress? A player should be able to hop on any server and progress at a reasonable pace. More players/server means more income/spending per server which means the profit ratio will go up.
Lastly, this provides players the incentive to continually build and improve their characters. Even though the marginal return on damage shrinks, it at least still means that players who invest in more effective toons/formations can expect better performance and somewhat of an in increase in income. Which encourages spending. Means more $$$ for uCool. The vast majority of gems purchased are used for cooldowns, thus shrinking coin/credit for players leads to shrinking money incomes for uCool.
Some Comparisons:
For a player that does around 2M damage per round, which is about the upper range for people without LB sets and in the 25-40M power range using Calvin, Shayd, Blood, Cianna, and Herja, he/she can expect to output 100M damage. He/she will earn around 7500k coins, 3000k credits, and 900 rep.
For a player that does around 5M damage per round, such as someone that have just beat Veleno and have equipped 2 LB sets and in the 30-80M power range using Shayd, Lance, Cianna, Herja, and Blood/Pompey, he/she can expect to output around 250M damage. He/she will earn around 15000k coins, 6000k credits, and 2100 rep. So, a 150% increase in damage from above resulted in a 100% increase in coins/credits and a 133% increase in rep.
For a player that does around 10M damage per round, such as someone who just completed 4 LB sets and in the 50-100M power range using Shayd, Lance, Cianna, Herja, and Blood/Pompey, he/she can expect to output around 500M damage. He/she will earn around 21250 coins, 8500k credits, and 3600 rep. So, this time a 100% increase in damage from above resulted in a 42% increase in coins/credits and a 71% increase in rep.
Currently, players at this level of output on empty servers can get up to 40M coins while players on server 1 at this level will not even get 10M. Now, both players will get around the same, neither too much nor too little. Also, 40M seems a bit high for someone at this point in the game, so this system adjusts the rewards downwards.
For a player that does around 20M damage per round, which is near the upper limit of players using the above formation who have built up the key runes to level 12 and nearly max damage on Lance, he/she can expect probably around 900M damage, due to the increased boss defenses at the upper ranges. He/she can rack in around 26250 coins, 10500 credits, and 5200 rep. hence, another 100% increase in damage led to only a 24% increase in coins/credits and a 44% increase in rep.
This is around the level of output Deuc, MattP, and I can reach. Yet right now, Matt gets around 20-25M coins per Banish, Deuc gets around 10-15M coins, while I get 40-60M. Shouldn't we receive the same rewards for doing the same damage? This means I will lose a lot of income, Matt will gain a little bit, and Deuc will gain a lot, which is fair.
Now lets go to the upper-range case where players have Aphro and a 2nd Sub. On 1.25B bosses they can probably achieve 40M damage per round, which means in this Banish they can probably deal around 1500M damage. He/she can rack in around 32500k coins, 13000k credits, and 7000 rep. For a 100% increase in damage, the player gains only 23% increase in cons/credits and a 25% increase in rep.
Such a Banish system would provide for reasonable income growth and balance incomes between servers as well as allow smaller players to be able to progress despite the presence of huge players dealing most of the damage in Banishes.
Of course, if newer future content justifies further increase in incomes, devs could always change these marginal reward ratios to provide for increased player income. But rewards for things such as Rag and Labs should be increased first.
I see a few things wrong with this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenWing
1. 100mil banish cap applies to all servers equally new or old across all servers. Server 1 is not unique.
2. Some of the newer servers has the advantage of power players with big gaps due to coining to yield higher than average share of the 100mil coins (but this is not for too much longer as others catch up and the pot keeps getting smaller).
3. Server 1 and some of the earlier servers has higher population of powerful players but they also have some significant advantages over newer servers
a. They have lvl 8 cities due to high population yielding faster growth and ability to craft gears fast when new instances are opened.
b. I noticed each realm the top guild can hold all 12 cities. This is not the case on the newer servers. The 3 realms have to fight for the 12 cities thus no one guild can hold all 12 on "each" realm (If someone i know who likes to open threads ... was on the other bad end of this stick, he would be opening threads daily to equalize this).
4. Tynon agrees that lifting the cap or raising it significantly would be harmful to the entire game overall and will not happen.
5. Of the servers 1 - 10, it is usually the top 3 - 4 players who grab 70% - 85% of the whole 100mil anyway and lifting it only serves them and it does not help the little guys much.
6. Raising the cap slightly for 6.25 Bil banish was already suggested for the extra effort. we will see if Tynon raises it, but until then ranting on the thread does nothing.
Off topic but pertinent to this discussion: People say things like "I don't care about CWF" yet they want to be competitive and on top. Why? So they can do what... To win the CWF one day? Or be more powerful to do what... To win the CWF one day?
Let's not kid ourselves. We all want to win the CWF for the prizes, it is one of the major reason why I spent so much on this game. Without CWF, I would have stopped playing this game a while back most likely. In fact had I known at that time this crown was going to be implemented, I certainly would "not" have spent what I did. Was this fair? should I be banned because I spent and got too powerful, like someone states I should be?
Now lets kill this thread.
Ok first
I would like to apologize if anyone thinks I am being mean or condescending. That is noot my intentions in the least.
Secondly
Some realms and soon many more are having trouble not triggering 6.25b
thirdly Thank you all who are recognizing at least part of the issues with this cap.
I feel many thought I was just whining because I wanted more coins. That is really not it. Of course we all want more coins. But the problem is the pot is only so big and tbh for some realms and servers the pot is too small. While it may actually be too big on other realms and servers. SO why not balance it out and make the pot the same for all. an infinite pot. Everyone gets the same # o rounds per banish. And set the coin/credit to damage ratio so that you earn at MOST 2% of your damage in coins and 1% in credits.
SO as an example
Right no I get about 25m damage per round. On a good banish that gets me about 25% of the damage in a 1.25b banish so thats 25m coins.
If I am averaging 25m a round and get 50 rounds in an unlimited HP banish event that would equal out to be 1.25b damage 2% of that is 25m coins WHICH MEANS I GET EXACTLY THE SAME as I do now and it takes 35-38 rounds more to earn the same.
Now at the same time a player in my realm who gets 2m damage avg per round which earns them 2m coins or so in a banish now gets 50 rounds of 2m damage and does 100m damage. 2% of that is still 2m coins.
So where is the change?
Glad you asked.
As that player who is only averaging 2m a round now powers up their income from banish will go up and noone else's income will be effected. So the small players FINALLY have an event that makes them compete with the bigger players for rewards and allows them to earn nice rewards.
the current system locks us all into that same format of the biggest players on day 1 get more powerful form banish and the smaller players get whats left in the banish pot and have to coin more then the top players or find other ways to increase their income. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY the most powerful player sin all of tynon are on NEWER LESS POPULATED SERVERS. So that they can rake in the biggest rewards possible from banish to power up the fastest.
Dont kid yourselves the banish system has created the situation. It was slightly flawed from DAY 1. Most top players on every server realized the system and took advantage of it. I know I have. My focus has always been to build for banish - not pvp not pve - but for banish itself. We move to different realms to get the most out of banish we can. We move away form other top players to get more out of banish.
I dont know how many complaints I have seen on this forum about banish. Most seem small at times. But my system I believe corrects all the disparity in the banish system once and for all. If it would have been in place form Day 1 we would have many more active players with larger accounts.
To add to my system
I believe top 10 should still get the same rewards we get now. But for every X amount of damage you do earns you a chip. so if you at least do x damage in banish you get a level 1 chip, if you do say 2x you get a level 2 chip instead, if you do 3x damage you get a level 3 chip instead. Then the top 10 also get an additional chip on top of that. I also believe level 4 chips should be the top prize. But since the damage system is the way it is, and 2 players with identical heroes with identical stats can do totally different amounts of damage with the same form - I believe 1-3 should get the level 4 chip, 4-6 get a level 3, 7-9 get a level 2 and #10 gets a level 1.
Stop asking for my threads to be closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
I suggested you be banned as a ridiculous notion to illustrate the problem I saw with CWF.
The crown system will never harm you
Dont kid yourself you went to a newer less populated server on purpose to get bigger banish rewards
Level 8 cities are useless for many of us on server 1 we have gear crafted for all 7 heroes before we get those cities. Hect My guild is still like 30 days off form that city and I have all but 1 piece of gear crafted for all 7 heroes, spec has his all done and has for some time and so has boo. We didnt need the stamina city to get ahead of anything. We have all that done because we have been playing longer then any one else except servers 2-5.
there are other servers like 91 for example where 1 guild holds all cities - however i will concede that having 12 cities per realm allows us to have a larger population then servers 11+
The top 4-5 players per realm who have 1 sub now and who eat up 70% + of the damage in banish will do even more damage with second subs making it so theres even less for small players who will then quit
Raising the cap slightly on a 6.25b banish does nothing more then add another band aid to the problem
I want to be more powerful to beat Boo - plain and simple. If I had coined as much as you I could already beat you. I wish you 'd stop thinking everything I say is about you. I have apologized in another thread once for over using your name. You are just the most known major coiner and have the most powerful acct in all of tynon. Your name gets said a lot. And it doesnt make it all about you
Would it be nice to win cwf - sure - but its not my goal. It is your goal and it is the goal of other players. but not mine. If i ever win it or make it to semi finals or whatever - that is a side effect of me trying to beat boo and spec.
You don't have a problem with the cap because it benefits you - you can deny that fact as much as you want - but it does benefit you- and penalizes players on servers 1-10 who try to compete with you in cwf.
As I ve tried to point out my quest to get rid of this cap and hopefully change the banish system is not to benefit just myself - but everyone who plays. Unfortunately people keep trying to make this about me and its not. Its about a flawed system with a band aid fix on it to try and balance things across servers- that in fact exasperated the problem and created new problems
But no one suggested lifting the cap. It seems people haven't been reading this thread carefully and have been assuming things that were never said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Two suggestions were made:
1 - put an individual cap per player that increases with the size of the banish
2 - revamp banish to allow everyone to fight in a ragnarok style banish. (a different individual that is more effective in making it fair to everyone, but that is more complicated to implement)
I spent an hour describing and justifying a solution to get it completely ignored. Riot, Matt, please read my above post. Matt, you'd idea is similar but still has the issue of income tied linearly to damage which stunts players growth early on and accelerates it greatly later.
yelsha I have no idea what the BEST way to assign the rewards for damage. I said you idea is a good one. Im just using examples so people can see real numbers. And hopefully see Im not trying to make it So I personally egt jore out of this situation and suddenly am raking in 100m coins per banish. I dont really want 100m coins per banish - but once I get second sub. I would like say 30-35m a banish compared to my 20-28m now. BUT I WOULD RATHER THAT NOT BE AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL MY GUILDMATES. WHich is unfortunately how the current system works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yelsha
I read your suggestion Yelsha and it is not bad, but I do not think for now, there is a quick fix solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yelsha
What I see is that we are going to have to live with this for a while until Tynon does something to change the game in a significant way. Maybe get rid of flash and go client based (which I heard over an over). Then maybe Tynon can control things like rid the ability to refresh. Just do straight banish and watch it regardless if you like it or not. This way no one will trigger the 6.25 bil banish anytime soon. In fact 1.25 bil will be a challenge for many guilds if refresh was gone and no instant finish.
I also think Tynon has heard as much as they need to hear. going on and on serves no purpose and to implement your idea is a lot of reprogramming and work they will need to do, while there are more pressing things they should address like finish the heroics for Sirus set and open more areas t farm materials, etc.
Off-topic, but there is a point to not releasing Sirius heroic/quests right away. Once you have all Sirius sets, what next? What are you going to work towards? Well, perhaps Dragonscale sets, but if they release that soon too, then what comes after that? There is only so much that raising level caps and releasing new item sets can do. They cannot endlessly add subs/gear sets/quests/level caps since eventually people will tire of it. By holding off on such things, they extend the longevity of the game. I am pretty sure the coding to release Sirius stuff would only take a couple days, and perhaps they have it coded up already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
True, but they can make the heroics for sirus set hard enough you have to get pretty end of game with all your current gears maxed out to beat it. Then make Dragonscale just as hard so it would take a long long time to power up all sirus to full before you could get those pieces. there are ways to slow down the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yelsha
Also the same would apply to the royal challenge. It should be so that you need to have sufficient power to beat it. Even beating prophet was a bit too easy as many can see from the replays. Once it was figured out, all people did was beef up kahn and queen P to beat it. Not very creative. It would have been good to have the heros start with full Morale from get go, vs. starting with no morale and build up. which gave Flav the advantage. Then it would have been more of a challenge.
And there you go Riot start to the heart of the issue while you are progressing at a good rate 99.9% aren't and this cap is slowing them down more, the people discussing this issue are not just thinking about them self's and how it will effect them but how it is effecting the entire game the large majority are no where near beating Ezekiel. To upgrade equipment we need coins the higher the equipment the more coins we need and at the moment the only way to get sufficient coins is banish events.Quote:
True, but they can make the heroics for sirus set hard enough you have to get pretty end of game with all your current gears maxed out to beat it.
Can people please make a point without using personal attacks? Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by andresitocharrua_4533739
I don't disagree that majority of the people are not there able to kill EZ K. In all of the games I have played, be it World of WarCraft, EverQuest, Lineage, DAOC, etc. majority of the people are no where close to being at the end game. In fact it is the top 1 - 2% who are at the very top. Everyone cannot be at the very top unless you either invest a ton of time, and in the case of Tynon a ton of money too.Quote:
Originally Posted by andresitocharrua_4533739
So what are we really saying here? We should hold the progression up so that people can get "caught up"? Have you ever played a MMO game where this is the case? I have not ever experienced it. The game sets the pace, not players.
What is happening here is that a few players who want to control the game to their advantage are trying to influence the game Dev to make changes. That is essentially what is happening here with a camouflage of "doing it for the guild members, and the rest of the player base" when in fact it is for self interest as self admitted by the OP "trying to beat boo".
Holding the progression of the game back, when in fact the game is designed to be progressed by massively coining. To hold the game back so that people who spend very little can get caught up is not fair to the player who invests, as well as to the integrity of the game itself. If this was the case, TYNON should have never put in such a coining model where people spend thousands to move past the fellow player. They should be like WOW and other MMO's where there is no cash progression, and only in game progression.
What the OP is trying to do is re-design the game to fit the needs of him and his server. I can understand the logic and the desire, but it is not how this game is designed.
This game is designed so that if you want to get to the end of the game progression, you need to spend a lot of money to gem up. Don't try to change it with miss-guided justifications. If you really want to play a game that is based on in game progression only, then you should go play another game. Tynon is not for you the way it is designed.
Thus, Tynon should not slow, stop, or hold back progress. It is the wrong thing to do and an unfair thing to do.
You do this as well... just the other way around. I actually agree that top players shouldn't be running into these walls, but you can't say the above statement and expect people to take it seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
It is true that not everyone can be at the top. If they were, then it wouldn't be the top, it would be the average. Players will always stratify themselves based on willingness to invest time, money, research, etc. It is not our job to equalize things, but to make sure there is a level playing field.
Dawn, you just answer on side issues when they make your side of the medal look good. Can you please answer, why should a server with 20 power players earn 5M coins per player whereas another server with only 1 power player earns the guy 100M coins? Is this how the cap is intended to work? If not, should it be revised?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnseeker
I never said it has been addressed. It still exists. That doesn't change my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattp169
Truth be told, I understand and sympathize with what you must be feeling. Your realm was close to unlocking the next banish level and everyone was working toward that goal - leveling up atk power on Thorsday, helping each other out with formation to get more damage, getting everyone to show up, etc. It was just coming within reach when the caps were implemented. All that anticipation instantly turned to disappointment. That sucks, I know.
Great then you agree something needs done to change banish to level the playing field? Banish makes the playing field very unlevel in its current form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnseeker
And riot for something that is going no where and you think should be closed, you make a lot of posts here.
And if you didnt see my example actually shows I wold get no more from the change then I do now. My idea levels the playing field across realms and servers
There is multiple things at play with your example.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenWing
The fact that there is 1 player on a dead server and a dead realm racking up massive coins is a problem, but the solution may not be so cut and dry. A server merger was supposed to level out these pockets of servers where there was such parity. I still believe an effective server merger strategy will fix these kinds of issues.
On the other end however, by lifting the cap on banish to give significant more coins, I do not believe is the solution. right now, the Dev team put a cap because they know things we probably do not know as far as the limits of this game.
But how are server mergers supposed to help servers that get 5M coins per player? This only forces players to move to a new server to create a dead realm for themselves, thereby perpetuating the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
I've been reading this thread and the only thing about banish in its current form that makes the playing field unfair is that the top players are well on top. Across realms I kinda get the argument. As for across servers, well I haven't played any games that made things equal across all (or at least most of) the servers. At the start, they are all equal, then it is largely up to the players to set the pace and the devs can make whatever changes they want to try and control it, but in the long run those changes are only going to do so much to level the field on old servers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattp169
When you merge servers, more players are in the same realms thus the distribution of coins are also spread out. The point is not to increase coinage per player, but to level out the playing field by merging servers so there is more players per realm. Thus eliminating a single player dominating banish on any given server.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenWing
As I said in another thread. They just need to fix how the cap is done. Currently they are using a % based cap, so that the maximum coins the boss actually outputs is 100mil. (1 mil per %). It's the easy way for the programmers to do it. However, if you look at the damage you do per round, it will show you the return you are actually SUPPOSED to get, if the programmers weren't so lazy. The way it should be programmed is by a hard cap that caps at 100mil, regardless of the damage you do, and you should accumulate coins based on what is shown in the per round return. The fact that the two don't add up, is proof that this is a bug, and poorly programmed. They just need to program the cap properly.
I agree it does hurt the smaller players. In fact I left my guild/realm because after getting the 2nd sub I was able to get 50% to 60% of the rewards. Now with the 1.25 billion banishments my old guild get to dived the rewards and I have move to a all but dead realm where I get 70% to 80% of the rewards on the 1.25 billion banishment. If they had better rewards for the 6.25 billion banishments I could have stayed with my guild and we all would have been happy.
agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby