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Thread: Heaven's Palace question

  1. #31
    Forum Moderator Morgan le Fay's Avatar
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    Y'all not going to like what I'm about to say. As much as you all reckon it's a good thing it's still an exploit.

    An exploit by defination is using a mechanic how not unintended for or/and glitch in the code to profit or/and gain an advantage. In this case both.

    Everyone gains you might argue but it doesn't change the fact this isn't how Heaven's Palace was intended. We have found a way to bend the mechanics to make it easier and gain rewards we wouldn't have been able to had it been done properly. And this folks is exploiting.

    I also suspect it will be changed soon so this won't happen again.

    Forum Moderators are volunteers and are unable to fix in game problems

  2. #32
    That's a shame. Nearly all mechanics in this game serve to drive a larger wedge between those on top and those on bottom. Even those of us who work hard at this game find that we get left in the dust by a few players, which is not something I typically complain about.

    However, if our 40mil power player is the only one who can make it through HP, then they continue to receive an advantage that might be earned, but is unfair. When she is in the Palace, as I suspect she will be this weekend, I make it to the 4th level if I power all the way up. That doesn't even get me back the credits that it takes to boost. She makes it to 99, gaining a CRAPLOAD of loot not available to us. What we've done is find a way to level the playing field for the entire server. It's true that it's probably not what the devs intended, but it's not like the devs take much time to tell us what they DO intend, y'all leave us to guess. There are 5 players on our server who can make it to the upper levels of our HP with our 40mil player there, they're the 5 that get the other bonuses as well.

    Like I said, I'm not generally one to cry foul with regards to the few who are able to make large achievements because they've certainly earned them, but the rewards for players not in the very top tier are so small as to be laughable, and THAT is the imbalance I do complain about.

    There are severe flaws in this game. While it's fun, this doesn't bode well for maintaining my long-term interest because time and time again, the things that are fun and interesting are nerfed to be less so, and the things that we all complain about as being unnecessarily draconian (100gems to remove lvl4 chips, 200gems to summon a runekeeper, etc etc etc) are left in place.

    It's fine, nerf it, but don't be surprised when fewer of us are around to "appreciate" it.

  3. #33
    Hopebringer WhoreChild's Avatar
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    That is based on the assumption that we know in detail what was intended in the palace. It being a late addition to the game I am sure this information cannot be found in the terms of use. Hence not a clear violation of any posted regulations and becomes your ideals versus my ideals. And that is no basis for either one's argument on the matter.

    Making the palace as difficult as you possibly can is going to drive players away. Fact.

    Making the palace as difficult as you possibly can further sways the balance of power in a given server. Fact.

    Making the palace as difficult as you possibly can is going to hurt business. And in the end this is a business. Is it not? A lucrative one at that. Until you let all of these players walk out the door. You will eventually stop tricking them into starting over every three days with new servers. Evony age 1 is long dead as a result of similar support issues.
    I will take what is mine, hold what is mine
    Suffocate what is mine, bury what's mine
    Soon the water will come
    And claim what is mine
    I must leave it behind
    And climb to a new place
    Water's risin' up on me
    Said the water's risin' up on me
    Thought the sun would come deliver me
    But the truth has come to punish me instead
    The ground breaks down right under me
    Cleanse and purge me in the water



  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BigPapa View Post
    That's a shame. Nearly all mechanics in this game serve to drive a larger wedge between those on top and those on bottom. Even those of us who work hard at this game find that we get left in the dust by a few players, which is not something I typically complain about.

    However, if our 40mil power player is the only one who can make it through HP, then they continue to receive an advantage that might be earned, but is unfair. When she is in the Palace, as I suspect she will be this weekend, I make it to the 4th level if I power all the way up. That doesn't even get me back the credits that it takes to boost. She makes it to 99, gaining a CRAPLOAD of loot not available to us. What we've done is find a way to level the playing field for the entire server. It's true that it's probably not what the devs intended, but it's not like the devs take much time to tell us what they DO intend, y'all leave us to guess. There are 5 players on our server who can make it to the upper levels of our HP with our 40mil player there, they're the 5 that get the other bonuses as well.

    Like I said, I'm not generally one to cry foul with regards to the few who are able to make large achievements because they've certainly earned them, but the rewards for players not in the very top tier are so small as to be laughable, and THAT is the imbalance I do complain about.

    There are severe flaws in this game. While it's fun, this doesn't bode well for maintaining my long-term interest because time and time again, the things that are fun and interesting are nerfed to be less so, and the things that we all complain about as being unnecessarily draconian (100gems to remove lvl4 chips, 200gems to summon a runekeeper, etc etc etc) are left in place.

    It's fine, nerf it, but don't be surprised when fewer of us are around to "appreciate" it.
    Life is unfair, why should Tynon be otherwise.
    The point of a game is to be challenging and fun.
    Reward those who have invested a lot.
    The game's not here to give everyone freebies.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoreChild View Post
    That is based on the assumption that we know in detail what was intended in the palace. It being a late addition to the game I am sure this information cannot be found in the terms of use. Hence not a clear violation of any posted regulations and becomes your ideals versus my ideals. And that is no basis for either one's argument on the matter.

    Making the palace as difficult as you possibly can is going to drive players away. Fact.

    Making the palace as difficult as you possibly can further sways the balance of power in a given server. Fact.

    Making the palace as difficult as you possibly can is going to hurt business. And in the end this is a business. Is it not? A lucrative one at that. Until you let all of these players walk out the door. You will eventually stop tricking them into starting over every three days with new servers. Evony age 1 is long dead as a result of similar support issues.
    Exploit is exploit no matter how hard you argue.

  5. #35
    Herby, "life's unfair" isn't a valid argument. Sorry bud.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by BigPapa View Post
    Herby, "life's unfair" isn't a valid argument. Sorry bud.
    How about:

    "Exploit is exploit no matter how hard you argue."

  7. #37
    I don't agree that this is an exploit.

    WhoreChild, don't call Herby a troll. Just because he lives under a bridge and likes to eat passing goats doesn't mean he's a troll...

  8. #38
    Forum Moderator Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan le Fay View Post
    Y'all not going to like what I'm about to say. As much as you all reckon it's a good thing it's still an exploit.

    An exploit by defination is using a mechanic how not unintended for or/and glitch in the code to profit or/and gain an advantage. In this case both.

    Everyone gains you might argue but it doesn't change the fact this isn't how Heaven's Palace was intended. We have found a way to bend the mechanics to make it easier and gain rewards we wouldn't have been able to had it been done properly. And this folks is exploiting.

    I also suspect it will be changed soon so this won't happen again.
    Since the developers do not tell us what the intent of the game is there can not be any exploit because of "using a mechanic how not unintended for" since we do not know what that is. As far as a glitch, this is not the case. It is simply that the players figured out how the game selects the formations for HP. So based on your definition of Exploit, it is not an exploit.
    Last edited by Andy; 10-19-2013 at 03:29 AM.

  9. #39
    I totally agree this is not an exploit in any way shape or form. WHY.
    1. its the same as sitting on shore and powering down, letting some low level player who you would normally not be allowed to attack, take your map, and revenge them later
    2. its the same concept as powering down and arena and moving down in the ranks to farm smaller players.
    3. Dawnseeker has repeatedly stated that Tynon team wants us to figure things out, so we did. If they didn't intend it to be this way they need to change it. Just like last hit on WB. We igured out teh timing so the same people could always get it, they did not call this an exploit, they just said this is not how it was intended and changed it.
    4. Noone from Tynon team has informed the players that manipulating the power of the statues is not what they intended.
    5. If the team wanted it to be the most powerful 2 members of the realm, they would ignore arena, and use an algorithm to calculate the 2 strongest players and set it based on their algorithm of how to make each of those two players forms be the strongest

    SO its not an exploit. It may not be what the Tynon Team intended, but that does not make it an exploit.

  10. #40
    Lightbringer Wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    Life is unfair, why should Tynon be otherwise.
    Depends on your perspective
    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    The point of a game is to be challenging and fun.
    I agree, for all involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    Reward those who have invested a lot.
    What is an investment, what is investing a lot, all open for discussion and again, depends on perspective
    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    The game's not here to give everyone freebies.
    Define freebie

    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    Exploit is exploit no matter how hard you argue.
    Quoting Dawn on this on discussing what is an exploit in another thread:

    The rule (pertaining to this issue) is simple: If you find a bug, report it. If you exploit the bug for personal gain, then you may well be hit with consequences, because we're trying to keep the game fair for the people who aren't exploiting bugs.

    I will address in general terms what you've stated.

    We are indeed "on the hook" for bugs, and we work to fix them. However, we don't always know about every bug. If a player is exploiting a bug instead of reporting it, then they are also "on the hook" for their actions. The penalty must be more severe than the benefit, or players will be incentivized to exploit bugs, rather than report them. We want to discourage such behavior.
    100 Coins and 1,000,000,000 Coins are not the same. One billion coins can alter the balance of the server. 100 coins won't. This is what constitutes a major violation. Even so, a single violation is not enough to warrant a ban. Multiple violations are required for a ban. Think on that.
    What altered the balance of the server was the exploit. If the player had not exploited, he or she would not be in the top tier of the server. By removing the exploiter, we are restoring the server balance. Additionally, if a player chooses to exploit, then they are knowingly taking the risk that they will be caught and suspended or banned. Those consequences are on the exploiter. If the person did not exploit, there would be no consequences.

    CHEATS AND HACKS - You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

    d. Use cheats, exploits, automation software, bots, hacks, mods or any unauthorized third-party software designed to modify or interfere with the Tynon experience or use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, "mines", or otherwise collects information from or through the Game or the Service, including without limitation any software that reads areas used by the Game to store information about a character or the game environment;

    You may not perform any acts that we consider to be damaging to Tynon. While we try to be as lenient as possible, and take in consideration many mitigating circumstances, the reoccurring offensive trends listed above have led to the closure permanently.

    I see nothing in here about finding out how things work and using that to benifit an entire server. It is not a bug or a glitch.
    A bug or glitch is something that is faulty and working in the disadvantage of tynon. How they take the formation was done how they intended.
    I doubt they didn't know players would find out how it is done. I give them more credit than that.
    Maybe they didn't think a server would work together and perhaps they will now change how it is done..

    Dawn speaks about imbalancing the server and one player growing considerably in regards to the rest. This is not what happens in this case.
    Being smart and observant cannot be seen as taking advantage of a bug especially when it isn't a bug/glitch.
    In my view doing it amounts to the same as not boosting in Ragnarok (or not participating) to let others win, not participating in Cerb/Ball to let others win etc.
    Is that too an exploit? Where does it end?

    We see how it works and then decide whether or not we wish to participate and how. But again, just a viewpoint like many others.
    Last edited by Wildflower; 10-19-2013 at 04:04 AM.

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